Wow, thanks for such a lengthy explanation. Your suggestions are very enlightening!

Yes, nappage is the word I was looking for, good to know about not checking it as it's simmering.

Unfortunately my only source for veal bones does not chop them up smaller and they come frozen. I don't have a cleaver but was thinking of a vise and chain saw--they were massive! I just realized with those huge bones, I probably used far more water than needed. So that may also explain the "weak" broth.

Great tip on thawing in a bag!

Actually my dark chunks looked like your dark chunks, weird, still sketchy on that one but I'll start practicing on chicken, as suggested.

The other videos I mentioned were on Youtube and other sources on the net which I watched long before I found Rouxbe.

I did roast the veggies but probably didn't use enough of them.

I hope this is going to be helpful for anyone else trying to make demi glace so they don't make the same mistakes I did.

Rouxbe rocks!!!

I make alot of pot roast's can you add this to your pot roast and now i also relize why my pot roast gravy is always to light ..maybe this will help i am not sure ?

You can definitely use demi glace as the liquid for your pot roast. It will add delicious flavor and color. Depending on how far you have reduced it though, it could be too concentrated. You might want to try adding 1/2 demi glace and 1/2 water (taste it and see). You can also just use all veal/beef or even chicken stock that hasn't been reduced.

This lesson on pot roasting provides a lot of information on liquids, ratios and developing flavor and color by searing the meat first. Hope this helps!

Hey guys, thanks for all the tips and I know this has been touched on before but I just want to clarify:

In my Leiths Techniques Bible it states that although veal bones are often used for their gelatinous quality, they themselves impart limited flavour so for more flavour use a combination with beef. Would you agree? What I mean to say is, would the flavour shift between delicate to strong depending on the ratio of beef to veal or would you stick to your guns and say all veal is better

Thanks!

:).. it scares me... I want so much to try but I'm worried I'm going to get all the ingredients and ruin it all. I think I over analyse everything! I'm worried if I order bones from the butcher they're gonna be not as fresh, and not the best selection (neck & back v thigh and drumstick bones etc). I'm worried if I try to save my own by whole boning chicken it's going to take forever!

I'm thinking of having a go at whole boning and rolling a free range chicken in the freezer, then using the whole chicken carcass for my first attempt at stock...

Hi Kevin,
Of all the techniques, making stock has been the one I've concentrated on the most in the months I've been here. Perhaps the best advice I've seen on the forums is to not over think it.

Pick one type of bone, follow the fundamental stock lesson, and get started. There's plenty of time to modify and experiment in more complex ways.

I began sometime this summer and usually have a new jar of either beef or chicken stock at least once every two weeks. I plan meals around that sometimes. For a few reasons, no two of my stocks have been the same, but that's fine. They have all contributed tremendously to what I put on the table in the end.

Good luck and keep it simple.

Hi Kevin,

Jim passes along the best advice. Don't over think it. If this is your first try at making dark stocks though, start with a Dark Chicken stock. the ingredients are very inexpensive and about the only thing that can happen negatively is that you a) over caramelize the bones or mirepoix (which would impart a slightly bitter flavor to your stock) or you boil it accidentally and your stock will be cloudy (but it's still usable so don't be too concerned over this one).

Follow the steps in the Stock Making Fundamentals lesson, bring it to a simmer and then walk away. Let it do its thing.

As for Veal and Beef. Some chefs don't really even like to make Beef Stock, but it's completely okay in our opinion. Veal, however, does impart an amazing flavor. But keep in mind that as you begin to make stocks, you can vary things up by mixing in chicken bones, lamb bones, it's doesn't really matter. What matters is the end flavor profile you want, which interestingly enough, you can even modify at the end of the stock making process when making a sauce or through the short stock method. Good luck.

Cheers
Joe

Thank you. That's reassuring. Though it's seemingly against my nature I'm going to try and follow Jim's advice and remember to "keep it simple". I think that's my biggest hurdle in the kitchen. I overcomplicate things in my head and consequently I'm disorganized because I spend too long on every stage rather than just getting on with it. It's so frustrating! I've been a member for over a year and I've only sought advice a few times and it's good to know you are available for guidance. Thank you for taking the time.

Has anyone ever made and tasted the classic Demi glace using sauce espagnole? I am curious how it compares to the recipe taught in the video. I have a book called The complete guide to the art of modern cookery by Escoffier with the recipe for the classic demi glace and wonder if it is worth making and want to know what difference there is between the contemporary version. I just purchased veal bones to make my first veal stock, they arent too easy to find. Also some recipes show using beef bones in addition to veal bones, I am assuming that may add more flavor. Do you have any experience with that and is that worth trying?

If you search for "sauce espagnole" in the forum discussions you will see a few threads on this subject. Cheers!

I was trying to find some recipes to use the demi-glace but realized that this lesson is not tied to any practice dishes as the other sauces are. Any ideas? Also, just wanted to ask if there is a reason why the demi-glace is not included in the sauces featured in the sauces lessons. Has it been substituted lately by more practical sauces like the pan sauces in modern cuisine? Thanks for your thoughts. I loved the video about how to freeze the demi-glace.

While this is a recipe for demi glace (straight reduction method), it is not an actual lesson (that is why there are no practice recipes attached to it). We are working on completing the sauce section of the Cooking School to include Demi and Demi-Derivative sauces. In the mean time, you can use the technique shown in the Pan Sauces lesson to create many of your own derivative sauces. Technically, the process in the Pan Sauce lesson shows you how to build any stock-based sauce - by cooking the protein, followed by the aromatics, then deglazing, adding stock/demi, seasoning, finishing, etc. For flavor pairing and inspiration, the Flavor Bible can definitely help you out in the mean time. Cheers!

Now I understand! Thanks for your very complete answer. I will review the pan sauces lesson.

So glad to hear about the upcoming lessons on demi and demi derivative sauces! I've been hoping to see that on the curriculum for a while. I often throw a demi "ice cube" into pan sauces, but I'm sure am only just scratching the surface of what is possible. Can't wait. Keep up the great work!

Hello,
Is there a preference to the kind of oil used for the bones and the vegetables?

Thank you!

In the dark stock lesson, we show using vegetable oil. Just make sure any oil that you use has a neutral flavor and a high smoke point that can withstand the heat. Cheers!

I have made light stock and dark stock and now ready to make Demi Glace but the only veal bones I can find are from suppliers to restaurants that do not sell to the public, with a minimum order of $125.00 or 44 lbs of leg bones, not cut up and not the beautiful knuckle bones shown in the lesson. I need 12 lbs of smaller bones, mostly or all knuckle bones as I understand it from watching the lessons. Do I try to buy from a fine restaurant? or what would you recommend. No commercial public markets can provide in my area. I don't want to buy more than I need or what will not work. I would rather use veal as the video shows and not beef. Either way, it will be a trick to get the bones I need.

Any recommendations for an individual like myself?

I like your suggestion of trying to buy the veal bones from a fine dining restaurant. Nice work MacGyver :-)

If you do not have any success there, then I guess I would continue to phone around to other butchers. Or maybe you know some other folks that might like to split a bigger order with you. There may also be some online sites that deliver veal bones.

Hoep that helps a bit. Perhaps someone else may have some suggestions for you Ken. If it's any consolation, I prefer the taste of a nice dark chicken stock over the taste of a veal stock. Plus it's much cheaper. Cheers!

You are so fortunate to have learned what you like. I have not been down those avenues yet but maybe I will wind up agreeing about dark chicken stock too, and wouldn't that be so much more convenient? Any-hoo, I'm just learning here. I'll let you know when I find veal bones and how it comes about.

ken I am a student also and have purchased good quality veal bones online, they ship them overnight and frozen. I believe around 30 pounds. I used some for a huge batch of veal stock and kept the rest of unused bones frozen for the next batch. one site is marx foods http://www.marxfoods.com/Veal-Marrow-Bones , i believe this is where i purchased them last. Do a search on web for suppliers. i made veal stock and reduced down glace and then filled ice cube trays with geletanized glace, after frozen i use frozen cubes to add to sauces to add alot of flavor. Good Luck!

Thanks Douglas, I have contacted a local meat market that might be able to get these for me. The flash freeze them there and warned me about possible problems with marrow if they were not handled properly. I'm assuming yours were fine. Let's wait and see what the meat market says next week. Thanks so much for the link. That might be the one I use also if other options locally do not come through. I have put quite a few ripples in the waters today and rattling everyone's cages about this. The local French restaurant, the one with the James Beard Association award, I know they empathize with my plight but said they cannot sell to the public.

Hello all,
I think I messed up my timing. Do you think that 20 hours to simmer is too long?
Thanks for any help.
Rod

As long as it tastes good then the time doesn't really matter. Timing depends on so many things, the heat, the amount of water added etc. Hope that helps Rod. Cheers!

What is the difference between this demi-glace and the classic version obtained from equal parts of dark stock and sauce espagnole? If sauce espagnole is made from the same ingredients of dark stock, except for the roux, what does it add to the stock when using it for demi-glace? Why the classic version was not chosen by Rouxbe? Thanks in advance.

Sauce Espagnole is one of the five mother sauces and will be covered in a subsequent lesson. While an important sauce in classic French cooking, this sauce is rarely used professionally anymore (in my experience). I worked in professional kitchens for many years and have never seen it prepared. Instead, a veal stock reduction is often used as the base for many derivative sauces.

The most common sauce preparation in professional kitchens these days is often one made from the technique of pan sauce making. Here a great base stock is used (e.g. veal, dark chicken stock) to deglaze a pan after searing or pan frying and then finished in a variety of ways.

Joe