I tried making a dark beef stock today. I bought bones from the supermarket. Although the bones had a lot of marrow, they had almost no meat on them so the caramelisation was not as great (I felt) as it could have been. Does there have to be some amount of meat on the bones for a good stock?

Also, I added three tablespoons of tomato paste to the mirepoix when putting into the stockpot as the lesson showed. But as the stock simmered, I thought the smell of tomato was just a bit too strong for my liking. I must confess, at this point, that I did brush a little tomato paste on all the bones as I had seen in one video.

Also, can I make a reduction the next day after refrigerating overnight, or will that not work?

Most bones you buy will have very little meat on them. So the ones you bought were likely perfect. You actually don't need a lot of caramelization to darken a stock. In fact, if you take a white stock, you can darken it by simmering only a few caramelized onions. It's amazing really.

As for the tomato paste, 3 tbsps should be okay. It was likely the additional tomato paste you added to the bones that made it overly tomatoey (is that a word? LOL). After much testing, we don't recommend adding tomato paste at the oven stage because you can easily burn your stock. Keep in mind that you are just flavoring water, so there is a fair amount of flexibility in the amounts of ingredients you use - not technique though. This is important.

And you can make the reduction anytime. The stock will keep in the fridge for a few days up to a week (best to freeze though if you're not going to use it). Reduce it anytime during this period or freeze and reduce later.

My complaints about the tomato smell in the stock was at around 3 hours into simmering. After eight hours of simmering the smell was all gone and it looked and smelled perfect. I can't wait to try a reduction.

Nice work Swati...you are really going for it with the stocks. Making and having stocks in your house will change the way cook and eat, forever.

As for the smell of the stock that you mentioned, stocks usually smell terrific, except for veal or beef stocks that is. At least in the beginning, I guess it is just the type of bones and meat. But the end result is fantastic, so don't worry.

Perhaps that is why I tend to make dark chicken stock the most. I love the smell of the stock cooking in my house and the end result is just as good, if not better, than the veal stock (of course this is just my personal opinion).

Good luck with your reduction! Happy cooking.

I made my dark stock yesterday using beef bones that I had in the freezer. After thawing them in the refrigerator I roasted them as instructed and when checking on them after about 30 minutes I noticed they were swimming in fat. There was a good half-inch in the bottom of the pan, so I removed it from the oven and drained off the fat, then resumed roasting. I had to do this again before they were finished. I have never seen any mention of so much fat being generated when roasting beef bones in the various books I have that discuss stock. Is this unusual? Should I have removed excessive fat from the bones before roasting?

With so much liquid in the pan I didn't think I would get any fond to deglaze, which is why I drained it off. Even with draining off fat, I didn't get any fond, which I attribute to using a non-stick roasting pan. I let the roasted mirepoix caramelize a bit in the stockpot and then deglazed that with the wine which seemed to work, but fond from the roasting pan would have probably been much more flavorful.

I am very pleased with the results of both the white and dark stocks I made. It is the first time my stock has ever been clear! It was so valuable to see the video of what "simmer" looks like and this was the first time I manage to avoid letting the stock boil.

A couple of things I learned: Buy a bag of ice before making stock so I have enough to make an effective ice bath for cooling. Have a couple of empty milk cartons ready to scoop the hot bones and veggies into for easy disposal.

Hi Carol. Removing the fat from the roasting bones is a good idea if there is an excess amount. However, if you bring your stock to a slow simmer correctly, the fat will also rise to the surface where you can skim it off as shown in the video. So it really doesn't matter either way. But just in case you accidentally bring your stock to a boil, it can be safer to remove as much fat as possible before hand.

Some bones will have more fat still attached to them than others. All depends on the butcher really, but whether or not there is lots of fat or just a little, should make no difference to the end product if you prepare your stock correctly. Reason: you will remove it all anyways.

As for fond (or more correctly named 'sucs' - the little brown caramelized bits in the bottom of the pan), non-stick pans will never create sucs as well as stainless steel or metal pans, period. And yes.. sucs will produce an additional layer of flavor to your stock when deglazed (as long as they are not burned). Burning often occurs when you don't have enough liquid in the roasting pan so don't worry too much about the amount of liquid.

Glad you produced a clear stock. Nice work!

Tony made a good response here by the way:

http://rouxbe.com/community/forums/7/topics/462

Super suggestions Carol. Ice is key to proper cooling. We have an ice maker so I hadn't thought of this. So yes... buy a bag of ice next time you're going to make stock everyone. And the Milk carton idea is a great one as disposal is a bit messy. Beats using another plastic bag. Thanks.

Joe, Thanks for the correction on sucs not fonds. Tony's explanation was great and he is right about sucs being lost in the American lexicon. I watch a lot of cooking on TV, read many food magazines and cookbooks, yet I was not familiar with the term. It just goes to show what a great food and cooking education we are getting here at Rouxbe! Thanks.

Hi all hope you had a great holiday. I was wondering if it would be possible to use the leftover turkey carcas to make dark stock buy browning it further in the oven?
Thanks . Keep up the good work

For sure you can use the turkey carcass. Browning it in the oven is a great way to add color and flavor to your stock.

I finally had a chance to make stock and I decided on the dark stock. I felt if you are going to take the time to do this, might as well get as much flavor out of the ingredients as possible! I used chicken back and breast bones and a few cooked turkey thigh bones, I had no tomato paste, so I threw in some canned diced tomatoes for a little tomato flavor. Overall I was pleased with the result, it looked rich and smelled wonderful. Only two problems. It was quite hard to reach and maintain a simmer on my electric stove, so consequently, it broke into a low boil a couple of times. No scum to skim, but the stock was opague. Disappointing. I think, though, with practice this will get better. Also, when I tried to brown the vegetables in the oven, the upper edges (particularly the onion) began to burn much faster than the rest of the veggies. I had to pull them out and continue browning the rest on the stovetop. I never did get a real caramelization with them. Any suggestions?

Anyway, I guess I can use the stock for sauces and gravies where clearness is not so important, but for a clear broth this is not the best result.

Is there any way you can clarify a stock once it is cooked? There are ways to do that with wine, but that's a different subject, altogether.

I think I might do the short stock most of the time, just to be able to have homemade stock on hand, as this method is very time-consuming, but I'm sure the flavor of the short stock doesn't compare.

Thanks for all your good tips!

This will be covered in the future, as the explanation and technique would take much more than just this forum thread.

Glad to hear you add success. Now my advice would be to make stock until you can make it without even thinking. Chefs and seasoned cooks make good stocks because they have made them hundreds of times. Cooking is all about practice.

Yes, Dawn, you are 100% right. It is all about practice. I have cooked with recipes only up till now and it hasn't taught me very much. It's the techniques that need to be done over and over. Right now its about getting organized enough to do practices on a regular basis. I have a tiny kitchen, so organization is paramount and I am not a naturally organized person. Time to get serious.

One of my friends is allergic to alcohol.

I've tried using lemon juice for deglazing, which works but adds a subtle flavor hint. That was fine for my last dish (lemon-sage gnocchi) but I'd prefer to avoid it in a general purpose stock.

What would you recommend as an alternative deglazing agent that would still keep the stock fairly neutral in flavor?

Here is a topic called Deglazing Pan Sauces from the Cooking School that should answer your question.

Click here for the full lesson on How to Make Pan Sauces.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Dawn, it does.

After watching the video, I suspect I made a technique mistake - I was using two agents and not careful enough about ordering. That might explain the results.

I'll try it again and some of the other options too. :-)

This may only apply to a white stock, but I've read an alternate technique for degorging the bones (if that's what you call it). the author of the cookbook says to add the bones to cold water, then once the blood an proteins come to the surface, simply dump the water. His point was that it takes hours to get the flavor from the bones, and this way it assures that all the nasty stuff gets discarded (as I said this would only work for a white stock). Also, I've seen some chefs add the vegetables in once the bones have been cooking for a couple hours. Is this also proper?

Good question Eric, blanching (or degourging, as you called it) is actually a very common practice when making stocks or broths. It is also used for both white and dark stocks. In fact, it is actually quite common with dark stocks, such as Pho.

For more information on this subject watch the lesson on How to Make Broth-Based Clears Soups. In topic 2 (after about the 2 min mark) we talk about and show you how to blanch the bones, which again applies to both stocks and broths.

Hope this helps.

I found a mention in one of my books about using a secondary stock called remouillage to make better stock. I understand the idea is to use up all the flavor in bones and mirepoix, so it's simmered in a second batch of water and then used again to make real stock.
Is that correct? Do you guys do that?
Thanks

Remouillage is French for "rewetting". You can create a stock by reusing the bones left over from making another stock. Keep in mind that even though you add more mirepoix and bouquet garni, there will not be as strong of a bone flavor as compared to the first time around. There also won't be as much gelatin, so the stock will lack that full body consistency. Remouillage can be used to make a braised or stewed dish (where the meat itself will provide lots of flavor) or it can be used in place of water when making a new stock. Hope this helps!

What is the problem with letting the stock come to a boil. It happened a few times during my process, but things seemed to turn out alright. Although I did not get nearly the volume that I thought I would. Any thoughts? Thanks!

The stock can come to a quick boil, but it should immediately be turned down to a simmer. For more information, you may want to review topic 4 of Stock Making Fundamentals.

There are also a couple of forum threads that talk about this same subject. Here is one of them and here is another. Cheers!

Can green onions be substituted for leeks in this process?

You could give it a try. I would suggest that you add them a bit later on in the stock making though as you want them to totally break down and cloud the stock. Of course you can also just add more onions and leave out the leeks all together. Cheers.