How to Make Dark Stock

I tried making a dark beef stock today. I bought bones from the supermarket. Although the bones had a lot of marrow, they had almost no meat on them so the caramelisation was not as great (I felt) as it could have been. Does there have to be some amount of meat on the bones for a good stock?

Also, I added three tablespoons of tomato paste to the mirepoix when putting into the stockpot as the lesson showed. But as the stock simmered, I thought the smell of tomato was just a bit too strong for my liking. I must confess, at this point, that I did brush a little tomato paste on all the bones as I had seen in one video.

Also, can I make a reduction the next day after refrigerating overnight, or will that not work?

Most bones you buy will have very little meat on them. So the ones you bought were likely perfect. You actually don't need a lot of caramelization to darken a stock. In fact, if you take a white stock, you can darken it by simmering only a few caramelized onions. It's amazing really.

As for the tomato paste, 3 tbsps should be okay. It was likely the additional tomato paste you added to the bones that made it overly tomatoey (is that a word? LOL). After much testing, we don't recommend adding tomato paste at the oven stage because you can easily burn your stock. Keep in mind that you are just flavoring water, so there is a fair amount of flexibility in the amounts of ingredients you use - not technique though. This is important.

And you can make the reduction anytime. The stock will keep in the fridge for a few days up to a week (best to freeze though if you're not going to use it). Reduce it anytime during this period or freeze and reduce later.

My complaints about the tomato smell in the stock was at around 3 hours into simmering. After eight hours of simmering the smell was all gone and it looked and smelled perfect. I can't wait to try a reduction.

Nice work Swati...you are really going for it with the stocks. Making and having stocks in your house will change the way cook and eat, forever.

As for the smell of the stock that you mentioned, stocks usually smell terrific, except for veal or beef stocks that is. At least in the beginning, I guess it is just the type of bones and meat. But the end result is fantastic, so don't worry.

Perhaps that is why I tend to make dark chicken stock the most. I love the smell of the stock cooking in my house and the end result is just as good, if not better, than the veal stock (of course this is just my personal opinion).

Good luck with your reduction! Happy cooking.

I made my dark stock yesterday using beef bones that I had in the freezer. After thawing them in the refrigerator I roasted them as instructed and when checking on them after about 30 minutes I noticed they were swimming in fat. There was a good half-inch in the bottom of the pan, so I removed it from the oven and drained off the fat, then resumed roasting. I had to do this again before they were finished. I have never seen any mention of so much fat being generated when roasting beef bones in the various books I have that discuss stock. Is this unusual? Should I have removed excessive fat from the bones before roasting?

With so much liquid in the pan I didn't think I would get any fond to deglaze, which is why I drained it off. Even with draining off fat, I didn't get any fond, which I attribute to using a non-stick roasting pan. I let the roasted mirepoix caramelize a bit in the stockpot and then deglazed that with the wine which seemed to work, but fond from the roasting pan would have probably been much more flavorful.

I am very pleased with the results of both the white and dark stocks I made. It is the first time my stock has ever been clear! It was so valuable to see the video of what "simmer" looks like and this was the first time I manage to avoid letting the stock boil.

A couple of things I learned: Buy a bag of ice before making stock so I have enough to make an effective ice bath for cooling. Have a couple of empty milk cartons ready to scoop the hot bones and veggies into for easy disposal.

Hi Carol. Removing the fat from the roasting bones is a good idea if there is an excess amount. However, if you bring your stock to a slow simmer correctly, the fat will also rise to the surface where you can skim it off as shown in the video. So it really doesn't matter either way. But just in case you accidentally bring your stock to a boil, it can be safer to remove as much fat as possible before hand.

Some bones will have more fat still attached to them than others. All depends on the butcher really, but whether or not there is lots of fat or just a little, should make no difference to the end product if you prepare your stock correctly. Reason: you will remove it all anyways.

As for fond (or more correctly named 'sucs' - the little brown caramelized bits in the bottom of the pan), non-stick pans will never create sucs as well as stainless steel or metal pans, period. And yes.. sucs will produce an additional layer of flavor to your stock when deglazed (as long as they are not burned). Burning often occurs when you don't have enough liquid in the roasting pan so don't worry too much about the amount of liquid.

Glad you produced a clear stock. Nice work!

Tony made a good response here by the way:

http://rouxbe.com/community/forums/7/topics/462

Super suggestions Carol. Ice is key to proper cooling. We have an ice maker so I hadn't thought of this. So yes... buy a bag of ice next time you're going to make stock everyone. And the Milk carton idea is a great one as disposal is a bit messy. Beats using another plastic bag. Thanks.

Joe, Thanks for the correction on sucs not fonds. Tony's explanation was great and he is right about sucs being lost in the American lexicon. I watch a lot of cooking on TV, read many food magazines and cookbooks, yet I was not familiar with the term. It just goes to show what a great food and cooking education we are getting here at Rouxbe! Thanks.

Hi all hope you had a great holiday. I was wondering if it would be possible to use the leftover turkey carcas to make dark stock buy browning it further in the oven?
Thanks . Keep up the good work

For sure you can use the turkey carcass. Browning it in the oven is a great way to add color and flavor to your stock.

I finally had a chance to make stock and I decided on the dark stock. I felt if you are going to take the time to do this, might as well get as much flavor out of the ingredients as possible! I used chicken back and breast bones and a few cooked turkey thigh bones, I had no tomato paste, so I threw in some canned diced tomatoes for a little tomato flavor. Overall I was pleased with the result, it looked rich and smelled wonderful. Only two problems. It was quite hard to reach and maintain a simmer on my electric stove, so consequently, it broke into a low boil a couple of times. No scum to skim, but the stock was opague. Disappointing. I think, though, with practice this will get better. Also, when I tried to brown the vegetables in the oven, the upper edges (particularly the onion) began to burn much faster than the rest of the veggies. I had to pull them out and continue browning the rest on the stovetop. I never did get a real caramelization with them. Any suggestions?

Anyway, I guess I can use the stock for sauces and gravies where clearness is not so important, but for a clear broth this is not the best result.

Is there any way you can clarify a stock once it is cooked? There are ways to do that with wine, but that's a different subject, altogether.

I think I might do the short stock most of the time, just to be able to have homemade stock on hand, as this method is very time-consuming, but I'm sure the flavor of the short stock doesn't compare.

Thanks for all your good tips!

This will be covered in the future, as the explanation and technique would take much more than just this forum thread.

Glad to hear you add success. Now my advice would be to make stock until you can make it without even thinking. Chefs and seasoned cooks make good stocks because they have made them hundreds of times. Cooking is all about practice.

Yes, Dawn, you are 100% right. It is all about practice. I have cooked with recipes only up till now and it hasn't taught me very much. It's the techniques that need to be done over and over. Right now its about getting organized enough to do practices on a regular basis. I have a tiny kitchen, so organization is paramount and I am not a naturally organized person. Time to get serious.

One of my friends is allergic to alcohol.

I've tried using lemon juice for deglazing, which works but adds a subtle flavor hint. That was fine for my last dish (lemon-sage gnocchi) but I'd prefer to avoid it in a general purpose stock.

What would you recommend as an alternative deglazing agent that would still keep the stock fairly neutral in flavor?

Here is a topic called Deglazing Pan Sauces from the Cooking School that should answer your question.

Click here for the full lesson on How to Make Pan Sauces.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Dawn, it does.

After watching the video, I suspect I made a technique mistake - I was using two agents and not careful enough about ordering. That might explain the results.

I'll try it again and some of the other options too. :-)

This may only apply to a white stock, but I've read an alternate technique for degorging the bones (if that's what you call it). the author of the cookbook says to add the bones to cold water, then once the blood an proteins come to the surface, simply dump the water. His point was that it takes hours to get the flavor from the bones, and this way it assures that all the nasty stuff gets discarded (as I said this would only work for a white stock). Also, I've seen some chefs add the vegetables in once the bones have been cooking for a couple hours. Is this also proper?

Good question Eric, blanching (or degourging, as you called it) is actually a very common practice when making stocks or broths. It is also used for both white and dark stocks. In fact, it is actually quite common with dark stocks, such as Pho.

For more information on this subject watch the lesson on How to Make Broth-Based Clears Soups. In topic 2 (after about the 2 min mark) we talk about and show you how to blanch the bones, which again applies to both stocks and broths.

Hope this helps.

I found a mention in one of my books about using a secondary stock called remouillage to make better stock. I understand the idea is to use up all the flavor in bones and mirepoix, so it's simmered in a second batch of water and then used again to make real stock.
Is that correct? Do you guys do that?
Thanks

Remouillage is French for "rewetting". You can create a stock by reusing the bones left over from making another stock. Keep in mind that even though you add more mirepoix and bouquet garni, there will not be as strong of a bone flavor as compared to the first time around. There also won't be as much gelatin, so the stock will lack that full body consistency. Remouillage can be used to make a braised or stewed dish (where the meat itself will provide lots of flavor) or it can be used in place of water when making a new stock. Hope this helps!

What is the problem with letting the stock come to a boil. It happened a few times during my process, but things seemed to turn out alright. Although I did not get nearly the volume that I thought I would. Any thoughts? Thanks!

The stock can come to a quick boil, but it should immediately be turned down to a simmer. For more information, you may want to review topic 4 of Stock Making Fundamentals.

There are also a couple of forum threads that talk about this same subject. Here is one of them and here is another. Cheers!

Can green onions be substituted for leeks in this process?

You could give it a try. I would suggest that you add them a bit later on in the stock making though as you want them to totally break down and cloud the stock. Of course you can also just add more onions and leave out the leeks all together. Cheers.

If you INVERT a stainless steel folding steamer basket over the bones/aromatics they will stay contained and submerged thus allowing unimpeaded skimming; free of floating bones/aromatics. The holes in the basket will allow the passing of the unwanted effulum (scum)to the surface for removal.

A classic technique is to make a tomato paste/liquid (of your choice) slurry which is basted over the bones and aromatics in the last stage of the baking/browning process AFTER the browning/sucs have developed. During this last 10-15 minute stage you should reduce the oven temperature slightly to prevent burning.

My grocery store did not have chicken backs so I used necks and wings for my "bones". I used my roasting pan and as the bones cooked they released a lot of moisture and fat. It seems that they were boiling in this liquid after 45 minutes or so and were not browning. So, I removed the pan and drained off the liquid. After putting the pan back in the oven, the bones began to brown and carmelize. I defatted the liquid and set it aside. After roasting my bones and veggies, they went into my stock pot along with cold water AND the liquid from the roasting pan and cooked for about 6 hours. The finished stock was very flavorful, rich, dark, chickeny", and...cloudy! It never got above a very gentle simmer because I pretty much camp over the pot the entire time. Also, there was very little foam to skim during the cooking time. Could the liquid from the roasting pan be the culprit? I'm not too disappointed with this batch because it will be a good base for my sauces and such. However, I will try again because I want to learn to make a classic stock.

I am loving my Rouxbe cooking lessons and try to do one or two every day. I've prepared a couple of the recipes for my family and they are loving my lessons, too. My husband has taken it upon himself to see that my knives are properly sharpened. He is a hunter and fisherman so he has all the sharpening "toys". In addition,we bought a good steel a few days ago. I used to go to the mall. Now, I go to the restaurant supply stores. Oh my! I've got it bad.

Cooking with love, Cheri

Today, I bought 5 lbs of chicken backs and 1 lb of chicken feet. I am going to make my stock tomorrow. If there is a lot of liquid that developes during the roasting process, should I pour it off to help carmelize the pieces? And, if so, should I discard ALL of the liquid or should I de-fat and put the liquid in my pot?

As I discribe in my earlier post, I put the liquid back in during my first attempt. My stock became cloudy and I wonder if the roasting liquid was the reason.

Thanks for any advice!

If for some reason a lot of liquid comes off of the bones as you roast them (though they should be fairly dry in the first place; otherwise they will steam rather than roast) then yes I would drain it off. I would just discard it as it is likely just impurities. Hope this helps - cheers!

Thank you, Dawn. I followed your advice. This batch of stock was much clearer.

I enjoyed the in depth look at the different types of broths and stocks. I've been making what I called stocks for many years and I got in the habit of chopping through my poultry bones to expose the marrow. This makes sense to me especially if making short stocks. Is this common or necessary.

Indeed you can break up your poultry bones a bit when making stock and/or short stock; however, it is not totally necessary. This is most often done when making smaller amounts of stock as the pot, amount of bones and the amount of time are all usually shorter and smaller. By breaking up the bones, you can fit more into a small pot and make a more concentrated stock.

Breaking up or chopping the bones is more beneficial for larger bones. This is commonly done when using beef or veal bones as they are often very large.

Hope this helps - cheers!

Is it really a substitute to veal stock?
We have no available veal bones or veal stock in carton in my country. Is it the same taste of a veal stock?

Dark stock will have the same consistency as a dark veal stock but if you make a dark chicken stock it will not taste exactly like a dark veal stock as they are two different animals. That being said, I am sure you would love dark chicken stock. In fact, it's the one I make most often. Hope this helps - cheers!

I just watched your video on the importance of salt...I did not remember any mention of adding a bit of salt to the bones before roasting would this not be a good thing? Not to make it taste salty but to impart more natural flavor?

There is really not a great need to salt the bones. A bit of salt is adding during the stock making process, but as you said you do not want to get carried away and make it too salty.

Stocks are meant to be fairly neutral so that you can flavor and season them further when it comes time to use them in whatever dish you are using them in. Cheers!

Hello, I went to the butcher today to see if I could get chicken backs and necks to make this dark chicken stock and all they have is chicken breasts bones? Can these be used for the same results? What other chicken parts can I also use, example, legs, wings, thighs, etc...Thank you JoAnn B

Really any parts will do. For more info Topic 2 in the "Stock Making Fundamentals" lesson covers this in a fair amount of detail. Cheers!

Can I use bones from a roasted chicken, instead of fresh bones? Will I need to roast them too?

Here is another thread from the "Making Stock Fundamentals" lesson that also talks about this. I believe there are even a few other threads that talk about it as well. In short the answer is yes. Cheers!

After saving backbones, necks and wing tips(I make a lot of Buffalo wings) for a few months, I gave this a try worked out great.

Hi Dawn,
I tried making stock again - last time I didn't use enough beef bones, so this time I tried the chicken stock. I went and bought 7.5 lbs of frozen bones. They sold bones of the entire chicken, couldn't buy backs/necks separately.

So I went through the entire process, browned the meat/mirepoix, drained off excess fat, simmered for 6 hours (on about level 3 on my induction range), skimming impurities and removing fat.

Once again, after I cooled down the stock, the next day the stock wouldn't gel/congeal up. It's more broth like and this time I used 7.5 lbs of bones in a 12 L stock pot! What am I doing wrong here?

A bit frustrated as I don't know what I'm doing wrong, maybe I really do need back/necks only? It's quite an investment of time for this not to work out, I really need some help here to point out what I've done wrong - yet again.

Today: I've reduced the stock by 1/2, went from 8 L to about 4 L and put it in the fridge, I'm thinking maybe it was too watery for it to congeal? Also, the stock isn't very clear but I am 100% it did not boil as I was very careful about this this time, if anything it may have been a very low simmer.

I found some frozen Veal Glace from my butcher that I tried and tasted very good, and I'm not sure I can keep doing this if I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I realize it's useful to make it yourself, but the time spent and it not turning out right is very aggravating.

Thanks for your help again. Everything else on this site is working 100%, just this one issue I keep having with stock!.

Forgot 1 thing, b/c the whole bird was frozen, I roasted a bit first, then chopped it all up and then continued roasting so bones were fairly small...

Thanks!

Stock will not always congeal. If you read through all of the forums on stock you will see that this has been asked and answered many times as everyone is worried about "their stock not congealing". Don't panic you likely did absolutely nothing wrong. Sometimes stock congeals...sometimes it does it a little bit and sometimes it barely congeals at all. It sometimes just depends on the amount of fat and gelatin in the bones. Next time if you use more necks and backs then it might congeal more, but again, don't panic if it doesn't.

You might be surprised now that you have reduced it and then refrigerated it, as this may give the stock a thicker consistency.

Next step is to use the stock and see how it taste and also see if it thickens when reduced to a sauce...it should btw.
Okay now take a deep breath and remember that all good cooks go through these trials and/or errors. This is how we all become better and more confident cooks. Keep up the good work and don't get discouraged. Cheers!

Hi Dawn,
I read somewhere that adding a package of chicken wings would help? Or chicken feet (although that might freak out my wife)? Maybe just add the wings to add more gelatin?

I checked it after the reduction, still no gel, it tastes good as always (which I guess is the main thing) but it still is very frustrating.

I'll try making a pan sauce with my chicken stock and see how it thickens. I can report here that the frozen veal glace I got from the butcher thickened beautifully and tasted great. So at least there's a backup solution, albeit and expensive one....

Thanks for the encouragement, glad to know I wasn't the only one dealing with this!

When I made the chicken stock I used a lot of wing tips I had cut off and saved when I make hot wings (we eat a lot of hot wings) It congealed very well, mind you it was close to half and half ratio of wing tips to backs and necks

I just roasted a chicken last night and saved the bones. This is a general question about making stock. Is it better for the bones to be from a raw chicken or is it ok to use bones from a chicken that's already been cooked?

Thanks!

You can definitely use cooked, leftover bones to make stock. We often freeze leftover bones until we have enough to make a bigger batch...but a small stock from one carcass is just as good. Cheers!

Barry, thanks for the 'tip' (bad joke I know). I think I will try that next time as I can't be bothered to invest this type of time and have it not turn out as expected. I'll try 1:1 as you suggested, hopefully my butcher saves the wing tips and I can just buy those.

Cheers!

Great points from everyone one, but just to reiterate - stocks do not always congeal and that's okay! You will still end up with a delicious stock that can be used in the same way and if reduced for sauces and what-not it will still thicken/congeal nicely. Cheers!

Can you use a slow cooker to make your stock, and if so, should you place it on high or low, and will the time change>

Here is another thread on this same subject. Also, if you type in "slow cooker" in the search field (top right of each page) you will see a few other discussions on this as well. Cheers!

My butcher has frozen veal bones that I can use to make stock. Since I need to caramelize the bones can I just put them in the oven frozen, or should I first thaw them in the fridge?

It is best to thaw the bones first; otherwise they will steam rather than roast. Some professional kitchens roast the bones from frozen (due to space etc.) but they never roast quite as well. Cheers!

how long can stock be kept frozen before it spoils?

Frozen stock will keep well for several months. Cheers!

I freeze mine in ice cube trays for a couple hours and then vacuum seal them, It was still great at 5 months when I used the last of it.

I have a problem, I'm using more dark chicken stock than I can produce from saved boned chicken carcases and the limited number I can acquire from my local butchers.

I tried reducing the deficit by using chicken wings instead. Although I'm sure they contain a much higher quantity of meat. The resulting stock seems to lack the richness and broad flavor compared to stock made using the carcases. I can solve the richness problem by reducing it down and simmering the bones for 10 hours (adding the caramelised vegetables half way through). However it still lacks the depth of flavor.

Next time I was planning on perhaps removing the skin from the wings so that I can get greater caramelisation of the meat or perhaps by chopping the wing segments up to expose more bone and meat. I've also considered the idea of mixing the two stocks together (chicken wing stock with the chicken carcass stock) or perhaps making the stocks with half carcass and half wing?

Do you know of any ways of improving the flavor profile of my chicken wing stock or is the depth of flavor a limitation of using chicken wings?

While chicken wings can be incorporated into the stock making process, it's important to realize that the bones within are extremely small and will not offer as much gelatin or flavor to the stock. You would need a lot of wings to create something with substantial flavor. This is why the necks and backs are preferred. Also, because the wings are so small, you also don't need to cook the stock for as long as you are. You can only extract so much flavor after a few hours. You can add more mirepoix to boost the flavor but this won't help with the gelatin/body that bones provide. Yes, you can mix backs/necks with wings.

If you are making this much stock, I recommend that you contact your local restaurant food distributors. Sometimes they will sell to the public. Alternatively, see if a local restaurant would be willing to sell you some. Maybe even try online?

It's a lovely thing getting hooked on making stock. I know I start to panic when my supply in the freezer is running low. Good luck in your search. Cheers!

I made my dark chicken stock from all wings (I ordered 40 lbs of necks and backs, but when thawed the first 10lb bag, it turned out they gave me wings instead.) i roasting the wings and discarding all the liquid(there was tons of it). Then deglazed and put it all in the sauce pan. I increased the vegetables to match the increase to 10 lbs of wings, then covered with cold water 2" above wings. After 6 hours of simmering (and occasionally adding water) and then straining in ended up with only 7 cups of stock. I cooled it and then refrigerated it over night. The whole 7 cups is gelatin! What should I do with it and why did I get so little stock? Can I heat it and and water to it to get the proper volume.

When it comes to stock, there is never such a thing as too much gelatin. Gelatin is what gives a sauce its beautiful body. The stock will turn to liquid once it has been heated. Unless you want to dilute the flavor, do not add water to the stock. Because you used a lot of wings/veg, there wasn't much room for water, which is why you wound up with little stock and a lot of gelatin. Cheers!

Since I ended up with less than half of what the recipe was suppose to produce, should I adjust the recipes that I use it in accordingly and use less of my stock and or add water to make up the difference since mine is obviously concentrated.
Also, after doing the broth lesson, is what I have closer to a dark broth than a dark stock? There's not a lot of meat on wings, but there is some and a lot of fat.

I recommend that you heat up a bit of the stock, season it with a tiny pinch of salt and taste it. If it is far too overpowering, add a bit of water. It is really hard to say without tasting it if it is overpowering or not. As to whether or not it is a stock or broth, I guess you could say it is more like a broth but I doubt you will use the meat from the wings. Broths have the advantage of using the cooked meat in another dish. Don't over think it too much. The important parts are the careful steps you took to make a flavorful, clear liquid that you can cook with. Hope this helps! Cheers!

Hello, I was wondering how much of the vegetables I should use if making a vegetable stock. The video mentions you can use just vegetables, but not how much. I wanted to try both a white and a dark stock this weekend, but I don't have that many bones.
Thank you in advance :)

Attached to the lesson on How to Make Stock Fundamentals is a practice recipe for Vegetable Stock. The amount and type of of vegetables are really up to you. Also, if you roast some of the vegetables (as you learned in this lesson), it will provide the liquid with a deeper, caramelized flavor and also darken the color of the stock.

The main thing to understand is that you are flavoring water. So, for example, if you use 1 cup of vegetables to 10 cups of water, you are going to have a very weak-flavored stock. If you use 5 cups of vegetables to 10 cups of water, more flavor will be infused into the liquid. No measuring is really needed...just add the vegetables to the pot and make sure that they are covered with cold water plus about 2 inches and then simmer away. It is fun to experiment with different types/combos and ratios of vegetables and different combinations of bouquet garni to create delicious veggie stocks. Hope this helps! Cheers!

I have made chicken stock often with great results but have learned some good points in the lessons to improve. I notice in lessons the pot is never covered, I usually cover pot loosly with lid cocked on pot to allow some evaporation, is it best to just leave lid off and just add water as needed? I want to make a good veal stock but have never known where to buy them, I found some websites that sell them for about $3 per pound, is that a good price?

The lesson indicates that covering the pot while making stock is not recommended. The liquid can potentially boil which will cause the ingredients to emulsify and make the liquid murky. Better to top up with water as needed. As for how much veal bones are, it all depends where you live but it sounds reasonable. Cheers!

Is it possible to use a cold white turkey stock instead of the cold water when making your dark chicken stock....that way you're not wasting the white stock sitting forever in your freezer.

Will there be to much of a difference in taste...one taking over the other?

I started the course in November and loving it....a lot of the questions I've had have been answered in the discussions but haven't been able to find my question.

Thanks for your help

It is possible to do this. You will just have a stock with a slightly different flavor note than one that was made with just chicken or turkey. This is where experimenting comes into play.

You may want to watch the lesson on "Making Short Stock" as this is covered a bit in that lesson.

As for your last point, about finding your question, I am sorry, I am not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean that you cannot locate them again later? If so, then simply go to your profile page and there you will find a tab called "comments". Click on that and there you will see your comments/questions and related threads. Cheers!

Thank you for your help...I will be experimenting with the stocks to see what I get.

As for my last point...that is exactly what I was asking...sorry for not making it more clearer.

Have a great day!

Quick question. When caramelizing veggies in the pot the lesson says over medium heat. How do you know when pot is ready over medium heat? Is it the same as pan frying where you can use water test?

No pots are not really tested in this way, though some might work in this fashion. I would not get too hung up on exact temperatures. You really are just looking for the pot to be hot enough so that the veggies will caramelize a bit. Cooking is all about heat and adjusting it, either up or down, as you cook. Cheers!

I have two questions:

1) After roasting the chicken carcasses and removing them from the roasting pan, instead of discarding the liquid (which there was a lot of) that was in the pan, I poured it into a fat separator. It looked to me like only 2/3 of the liquid was fat and the rest was potentially flavorful chicken juice (for a lack of better word), so I poured the "juice" into my stockpot. Was this a mistake or is this something you would have recommended?

2) Last time I made a stock, I placed an inverted metal steamer basket on top of the chicken bones for the first hour, which made skimming much easier and prevented the bones from bobbing up to the surface. Do you see any disadvantage with doing this?

Thanks!

All of the juices and browned bits on the bottom of the pan should be incorporated into the stockpot. As shown in the lesson, deglazing will also help lift up any bits on the bottom of the pan. It is not necessary to separate the fat from the liquid because it will float to the surface anyway once it is in the stockpot. If placing a strainer over the bones helps you to skim, then go ahead. Cheers!

Thanks, Kimberly. The video showed the drippings being discarded (and it looked like it was mostly fat, so maybe that's why), but since my roasting yielded about three times the volume of liquid with only 2/3rds of it being fat, I thought it would make sense to incorporate the good stuff instead of throwing it away. Maybe next time I'll deglaze the sucs with the non-fat portion of the drippings for an even more concentrated chicken flavor. Do you think adding the fat portion of the drippings to the stockpot might lend the stock more flavor?

Right, at the beginning of the deglazing video, the excess fat is poured off; but, this won't hurt the stock if it is added to the pot (along with any juices that have accumulated) before you deglaze.

As Chef Tony mentioned in another thread, "...keeping the fat in the stock would mean ladling more rendered fat, and some chefs clean out as much fat as possible. I prefer to keep it in because some of the flavouring agents of fat are water soluble. Chefs may keep it out, but grandmas keep it in."

It's really up to you whether to add it or not. There are no strict rules. The best way is to test each method out and see if you can tell the difference and also see if separating the fat/liquid beforehand is worth the extra step. Cheers!

Really helpful info! Thanks, Kimberley!

I made dark veal stock last night and have a question and a comment.

Question: Could you post a picture of what veal bones should look like when the stock is done? There's a lot of talk of hollow bones and some discussion of not being able to get "all the stuff" out of the bones. My bones were pretty broken down, and the insides were really soft, but there was still a healthy amount of matter inside them (though I suspect I may have gotten the gelatin out of them.

Comment: You should put in the lesson that the bones can explode while roasting (the joints, that is). Michael Ruhlman talks about it happening when he was learning how to roast veal bones for stock at the CIA in his book Making of a Chef. It happened to me when I was roasting my bones and I would have been very worried/surprised if I had not already heard of this phenomenon.

Love the site!
Adam.

Once the stock is done, the bones will look very much "washed out" and a lot of the brown color is gone. The stuff in the bones is a lot of marrow which is mostly fat. I always try to get the joint bones, that is where the gelatin/collagen is. In regards to the bones exploding, this has never happened to me, yet I can see that if some of the bones are not cut and the marrow is exposed, that marrow will expand during roasting and break up the bone. That is the only explanation I have on that. Hope this helps!

I unthawed some dark chicken about 1 week ago. Is it still safe to use & what is expected "shelf life" in the fridge?

Thanks

Refrigerated stock should be used within a few days...up to a week from when it is made. Make sure to bring the stock to a rapid boil for a several minutes before using to kill any potential bacteria. Once it has boiled, taste it to make sure it hasn't soured or gone off. If it seems fine, use immediately. Cheers!

I was wondering if it was really necessary to use just bones to caramelize, (or to just use with a basic white stock) or if I could just use whole parts of meat, and save the cooked meat?
Thanks for this great class!

I am not very clear on your question. If you are asking whether or not it is necessary to brown the bones when making dark stock, the answer is yes...the bones need to be caramelized to develop the rich flavor and dark color in the liquid.

You can go through the process of making a white stock and add raw bones to the liquid...BUT you can also add caramelized mirepoix. This no longer makes it a white stock, but by caramelizing the mirepoix, this will give the liquid some color and more flavor. Browning/caramelizing = more flavor/darker color. It is really up to you as to how much flavor and color you want to add. Does this help? Cheers!

Today I'm doing dark stock with all backs. I have followed instructions carefully especially temp. Question is, the stock is a very rust/dark orange color. I don't see the amount of foam to skim I did with the other stock I made. I'm not sure now if I am skimming fat or gelatin? thoughts?

The color is affected by the amount of roasting, the amount of carrots and tomato paste used so don't worry. As for skimming, only fat and impurities float to the surface. The gelatin is contained within the liquid and will become firm once the stock is completely chilled (it will liquefy once it is reheated). Dark stock is so yummy. Good for you for trying it out and stocking up! I see some delicious dishes in your future. Cheers!

Thanks, help here by staff really makes the process helpful.

Thank you

Hi again, well I made the dark stock with a couple mishaps. Had to drain excess grease from chicken twice as it was splattering everywhere. I think they didn't get as dark as they should have. Ice bathed, put in refrigerator, skimmed fat cap, then ran through strainer twice. Now I'm about two hours into reduction simmer. It just tastes like lightly flavored water. I can taste a hint of onions and the tomato paste but that's about it. So is this stock suppose to taste really really great like a finished product or just slightly better than water? For some reason, stock making just isn't working out for me. Thanks

is.

I think you may have answered your own question. If your gut tells you that you don't think you roasted the bones (and possibly mirepoix long enough), that could be one reason why your dark stock isn't as flavorful as it could be. Stock can be extremely flavorful...so much so that we often add a pinch of salt and drink it like tea!

Dark stock is definitely a longer process, and yes, roasting the bones can be a bit messy, but it's something that you as the cook need to determine if it is worth it or not. Your cooking will undoubtedly rise to a higher level with homemade stock - no question about it.

I can assure you that the process will become easier the more you do it. You also have to realize that with cooking, you may not nail every technique the first time. It takes practice over and over again. Cooks don't learn a technique, walk into the kitchen and automatically become pros at it. It takes time, so be patient with yourself. The stock you made will definitely add more flavor than water to the food you cook, so it wasn't a lost cause. Review the lessons in the stock section again, follow the attached supporting recipe and then start to make your own personal adjustments (if you like) each time you make a batch. Cheers!

I wonder if I skimmed too much when reducing. I took it out of the refrigerator and removed the fat cap, then I started to simmer it at low temp and saw a thin gel cap form. Should I have left that?

An tips on getting the stock brown like the video? Thanks!

Eric, I think you need to step back and take a deep breath and just relax :-) I think you are totally over thinking it.

The gel cap that formed is normal. It's the gelatine from within the stock that sometimes creates a little skin. It's okay to leave it, it's okay to skim it. It's not a big deal.

As for getting the stock brown like in the video. Next time, roast your bones and/or your vegetables a bit longer. Also, make sure you didn't crowd the trays as this can cause the food to steam rather than roast.

Again, once you make stock more than once or twice, you will get a better feel for what you are looking for and what it should taste like etc. Cheers!

I am over thinking because this is all brand new to me. I'm the master of pulling plastic on microwave meals. Thanks so much for your patience.

Hi I am going to attempt dark stock again. I had a hard time getting them browned last time. When I get the stock from my butcher it is frozen in large bags. Do you think I should wait until they defrost then let them sit in the refrigerator on a drying rack over a plate over night? they seemed really damp when they finally defrosted and I think that must be why I had to keep draining the pan and adding oil and why I think they steamed and never browned. Thanks

Excess moisture will cause the bones to steam, rather than roast, and the bones will wind up having to stay in the oven for a lot longer to achieve a dark, caramelized color as shown in the lesson. So, yes, let the bones thaw in the refrigerator. You can let them drain on a rack but you can even place the rack into a large roaster (and cover) so that no raw chicken juice drips on to any other food in the refrigerator.

Before roasting the bones, you can also pat them dry with paper towels (this is done with any type of protein before using a dry-heat cooking method). The drier the meat or bones are, the quicker they will caramelize/roast. Cheers!

I have a small oven which will take the only stainless steel baking pan I have that is 13" x 9". Will this pan be big enough to roast the 6 lbs of chicken necks that I plan to buy tomorrow? It seems like it is going to be too small.

Every cook needs to make adjustments based on the equipment available to him or her. If you have a small pan and a small oven, sounds like you'll need to cook the bones in batches. Overcrowding will only cause the bones to steam and it will take the bones longer than necessary to caramelize. You could also consider making a smaller batch of stock. Cheers!

I found a Stainless Steel 14-3/4" x 11-5/8" x 3-3/4" roasting pan online that I am having shipped 2-day shipping. Will this be big enough? What size pan do you recommend for the entire 6 lbs of bones? This will be as big as I can go. If I still need to cook in batches, I'll split it in half, as I would like to make the entire recipe. Should I simply set the cooked bones aside while the rest cook or should I cool and refrigerate them? Seems like the cooking of the bones is very important but only about 45 minutes per batch. Hopefully this new pan will accommodate in one step. I will go by what you recommend, and thank you so much for your help on this.

Sounds like your new pan might be large enough. Basically, the pan or tray should be big enough so that the bones can lay in a single layer, with a bit of space in between, so that they roast properly.

As for whether or not you need to refrigerate the bones, it really depends on how long they will be out. For food safety reasons, I would say, "yes, refrigerate them".

Ken, how long they will take to roast is not solely based on 45 minutes. You are looking for them to caramelize nicely, if that takes 30 minutes great, if it take over an hour, then that's what it takes. Everyones kitchen, equipment and ingredients are different.

If you are unsure of the process and you feel overwhelmed you may just want to make a half batch. This will still produce plenty of stock. It will also give you an opportunity to practice the stock making process another time. The more practice, the easier it becomes. Cheers!

I'm pulling out all the stops on this lesson, as I realize dark stock is of primary importance, I want to bring my kitchen up to it's maximum capability for cooking now and in the future. Even though I have a small oven in a trailer, I noticed it was a 'tall' oven and would take another rack, so I just bought a second rack. Now I am scouring the internet and have purchased two high quality stainless steel roasting pans of the 15" x 12' size that will fit my oven. I am also looking for a 15 x 12 roasting tray for the mirepoix. I just got my beautiful padded kitchen stool with back so I can 'hang around' the kitchen for long periods of time, like for making this stock. I think I am ready, reviewed and revved up to take on this challenge starting first thing tomorrow morning.

What fun I am having!

Thanks for the reply Dawn - all comments here are a tremendous help at this point.

Hope everything is going well for you in the kitchen for you today.

One thing I just wanted to mention, keep in mind that foods on the bottom rack may not caramelize as nicely as the top rack, due to the air circulation; therefore, you may need to rotate the pans.

Keep up the good work Ken!

I'm right in the middle of it. My little stove never worked so hard or so well. It's all going picture perfect. Still hours ahead of finish work. Simmering will be done by 8:00pm. Whew, I've been at it all day but oh how rewarding. Thanks Dawn.

I've been documenting each step along the way with photos. Almost unbelievable process. I'm feeling so elated about this. Had to do some emergency steering over to the Target store as the elite cookware that was supposed to arrive overnight did not make it. Even that turned out for the best.

I am elated! It's done, all in the freezer and finished! I'm exhausted and taking the day off today, but very satisfied at a project that went so well.

If there is a way to post images here, I would be glad to show you at least, my little miniature trailer oven packed to the gills with baking trays. By rotating and even using the unclaimed space underneath the oven flame, I was able to do all of the caramelizing part in a hour and a half.

Yeah Ken!! That's great news. Enjoy all of your delicious stock over the coming weeks and months.

I made my first dark stock about a year ago. It went okay, but I finally have enough time to try again. I only have 9x13 glass pans, but they are working wonderfully. I think I may not have roasted the bones long enough last time, but both times they still produced sucs (though likely not as many as a stainless steel pan). I have been able to deglaze by using the microwave to heat the pan really well and quickly adding the wine and scraping, and then reduced using a pan on the stove.
This time is going so much more smoothly. The bones looked exactly like the video, I still need to work on roasting the mirepoix
My only issue is that, whether making light or dark, the bones are always floating, so I can't keep them submerged. Do I need to worry about that?
I love how much more confident I am today than last time and how my house smells like Thanksgiving in May!
Thank you, Rouxbe!

Great job on the stock! The bones will float somewhat when covered completely with water but don't worry. The point is to make sure that too much water isn't used (otherwise the stock will be diluted in flavor) but to also ensure that the bones and mirepoix aren't sitting completely out of the water; otherwise, their flavors cannot be extracted. It's just a balance. As long as the ingredients are JUST covered with water...plus a tiny bit more, this is all you need to be concerned about. Hope this helps. Cheers!

Thanks, Kimberly, that does help. If I have used too much water, I can reduce slightly when it is finished to help increase flavor, correct?

I had bones and mirepoix floating to the top and just disregarded and kept skimming off the scum. I have read since, that someone used a 'grate' or heavy enough big mesh weight to hold down the ingredients. If it were really that important I would do that, but I don't think how things 'float' really makes a lot of difference. Most everything is submerged regardless and my result was perfect IMHO.

Yes, you could reduce to concentrate flavors if need be. A weight is not necessary (it's just another tool to have to clean). Whatever amount of bones and mirepoix you put into the pot needs to just be covered with water and you don't need to think about it much more. Cheers!

Leigh, This is not a Rouxbe comment, but a friend of mine who went to France and took cooking classes over there came back with one opinion I will never forget: "Men worry their food to death."

I'll never forget what she said, and I always try to take the 'lighter approach' to cooking as I realize how wrapped up I've always been in details and I don't want to live out her comment as well. Hope you enjoy this as much as I have.