How to Make Stock | Fundamentals

I was taught that the aromatics bound in the cheese cloth is called a Sachet bag. And the reason you put it in the bag is so you can remove it halfway through the cooking time

The bouquet garni (or Sachet) is a bundle of herbs usually tied together with string (or cheesecloth) and mainly used to add seasonings to stocks.

Here's a Drill-down for reference: http://rouxbe.com/drilldowns/304 Jeremy you are right.

Main thing to understand is that this is like making tea. You don't really want to let your herbs steep too long. We recommend adding the bouquet garni or sachet during the final 30 minutes of cooking. This way you don't have to tie it because it can be strained out with the bones and mirepoix.

I would have loved a section on how to make stock without using bones or at least a mention about it as an alternative!

Hi Renee,

Vegetarian stock will be covered in a future lesson, however, the same stock-making essentials apply from Lesson 1 "How to Make Stock". To extract more flavor from the mirepoix vegetables, you can sweat them over low heat in a bit of oil to soften. You can even roast/caramelize the vegetables if you want to make dark stock.

Stay away from vegetables like turnips, peppers and cabbage, as they will impart a very distinct flavor. Add a good amount of cold water to cover (about 1 part veg to 1 part water), simmer and continue with the same stock-making process. Vegetable stock takes less time to cook (about 45 mins to 1 hour).

One other note: ingredients such as mushrooms, corn on the cob or lentils added to a vegetable stock can provide the liquid with some body and protein.

That's brilliant Kimberly, I was really wanting to learn so I could make some things for my one year old, the store bought has so much salt in it! That is a great idea about the lenitls as well, I never would have thought of that. I really appreciate your getting back to me on this.

Having set about making my stock, I have a couple of questins - it looks in the video the carrots are peeled, is that necessary?

Also, my mother used to use vegetable whichs were, shall I say, past their prime in her stocks to use them up (she hated waste). Is this a bad idea?

When making stock, it is best to use fresh vegetables. Old vegetables can lend bitter flavors to stock, so if you're going to go through all of the effort, we recommend using fresh ingredients. Make sure your vegetables are washed and peeling them is up to you. Some chefs do - some don't. Try it both ways to see if you notice any difference in color and flavor.

If you know you're not going to get around to using a particular vegetable, start a mirepoix collection bag. Cut the vegetable into the appropriate mirepoix size and freeze before it passes its prime. When it comes to making stock, you'll have extra vegetables on hand.

To my mind, if you are going to add pepper combined with your herbs. .. and (In this case to stock}. a few whole peppercorns won't make a big difference}.

What I do is take a few peppercorns and instead of adding them whole, I get out my little hammer in my drawer and lay out a bunch of whole pepper corns on my work table and smash (tap) them with my handy little hammer. Then I add the cracked peppercorns to the stock.

I dunno, I just think that if you are going to add pepper, why not really add pepper. And if you crack the pepper corns first, this will do it

Hi Tara... keep in mind, you are making a base stock that should have great chicken and vegetable flavoring (from the mirepoix). The dominate flavor though should be chicken (unless making beef or veal of course).

Because this is a base that will be used to make many different sauces, soups and dishes, keep the seasoning to a minimum. You can always add more garlic, salt, pepper, thyme, etc. later but you might not want it too 'peppery' for some dishes.

Lastly, as taught in this lesson, there are no absolutes. If you love pepper, double or triple it - no problem.

I understand now and see what you mean. Thanks for your reply, Joe.

I noticed that leeks were used in the white stock recipe. Do they impart a better flavour than regular yellow cooking onions? I am a fan of leeks as I grow them and would choose them as my onion of choice for a stock. Would they be better in a lighter stocks like chicken?

I just checked the practice and see that a combination of leeks and onions are used for a white chicken stock. However, I'm still curious about whether the milder flavour of the leeks works better in a white stock.

Leeks simply add another layer of flavor to stocks. They are typically used in all stocks. The one thing to keep in mind though, is to only use the white and light green part of the leeks when making a white stock that you'd like to be light in color. The green part will leak (no pun intended lol), some of their green color into the stock For most uses, this is really okay as it is very minimal.

Remember, with stocks, don't worry about being too strict on the amounts of ingredients. In fact, don't even worry about measuring things. You are flavoring water....

I also find white onions to be a bit more milder in flavor than most leeks for the record.

I just made the basic white chicken stock tonight. It was just as easy as it looked. I just have one question though... should I de-fat the white stocks as is shown in the dark stock-making video? Or would de-fatting it make it too bland since the white stock flavour is quite mild?

In both cases (white and dark) you will want to de-fat the stock. You can do it when it is hot by skimming the surface, or you can cool it over night and remove the fat when it is solid (much easier I think). Just make sure you cool it properly in an ice bath in the sink before refrigerating.

Congratulations! What are you going to make with it?

Thanks Joe. I think I did a decent job of skimming fat off during the simmering because this morning (I made the stock last night) there was very little to get rid of. As far as what I am going to make with it, I don't know yet. I was just trying to learn the basics so I made the stock. But I think I will try the couscous recipes. Is there a difference in the actual grains of couscous making one Morroccan and one Mediterranean? I have some couscous in my pantry, but it doesn't say where from. Would it matter too much in a recipe?

This is a drilldown on the differences when it comes to couscous - http://rouxbe.com/drilldowns/62

This is a recipe http://rouxbe.com/recipes/50/preview - small grains of couscous are used, great for soaking up sauces.

This is also a recipe http://rouxbe.com/recipes/62/preview - just a bit bigger grains, great texture and one of my favorites.

Both use chicken stock, but which one you use is up to you and what you are cooking. Hope this helps! dawn

Thanks Dawn! I will try the couscous recipes. I was very excited to discover how much enjoyment I got out of everyday cooking. And now with Rouxbe, I can learn how to do things right an get the restaurant taste right in my own home!

I have a stupid question. Are the chicken bones for stock supposed to be raw? I've always boiled my left over turkey bones, for example (with not great results. I still have to add oxo so it doesn't taste like dishwater.)

If they are supposed to be raw, where do you get them? I've never seen chicken necks and backs on the shelf at the supermarket.

Generally you are supposed to use raw bones when making stock. Cooked bones will still work, but raw will give you the most flavor.

I buy raw bones at my local butcher and many other places around town. Really any store that does there own butchering will likely sell the bones. I think if you phoned around you might be surprised how many places sell raw bones.

If you like you could check out the stock making essentials course on Rouxbe http://rouxbe.com/school/sections/3/objectives
We walk your through how to make stock, from start to finish. We also give you the "whys" to making stock, like why fresh bones are so important etc.

Good luck, hope this helps.

The most recent batch of chicken stock I made is, well, solid rather than liquid after being chilled. It is the consistency of a very soft gelatin. It tastes great, but looks a bit strange. Is this a good thing or not a good thing?

Gelatin in a stock is fantastic. Gelatin adds flavor and texture to your stews, soups and sauces. The gelatin in your stock is what will give your sauces that sexy texture (meaning that "mouth-feel" as the sauce slides over your tongue).

So Carol, yes is the answer to your question. Your gelatinous stock, means that you made a great stock! Good Job!!

I am a cook onboard a boat and the pressure cooker is my best friend. Are there any good hints on how to best use a pressure cooker to make stock-realising that the skimming and defatting bit will have to come at the end. The savings in fuel, time and the safety factor mean that I really have no other option but a pressure cooker when we are out in the ogin.

Hi Karen. Using a pressure cooker is certainly better than nothing. Few things to think about.

Using a pressure cooker will result in a cloudy stock where the fat emulsifies into the stock. But aside from not being clear, the flavor should be just good. You could make it a day before, cool it properly, then refrigerate it so you can remove most of the fat.

Couple of other suggestions:

1) Make a big batch of stock before departing. Reduce and freeze in small batches. This way you'll have what you need when you need it.

2) You could buy low sodium stocks in tetra paks (like swansons). Must be low sodium. It's not as good as home made stock for sure, but it's better than water. You can also doctor up these stocks by browning additional bones and vegetables and then cooking (see short stock lesson).

Cheers. Joe

I made a pot of chicken stock last night following your instructions. But after being in the refrigerator over night, there is no fat cap as seen in your video. Is this normal or did i over skim during the cooking process?

Don't worry you likely just skimmed away most of the fat while you were making the stock. This also happens to me sometimes.

After making a stock, I know you can freeze it when you are finished, but what amount per container would you suggest freezing it? I guess I am wondering how much stock does each recipe usually require?

I recommend portioning out 2 cups at a time. I used to do bigger batches but I find that 2 cups works really well (sometime I do a few 4 cup containers as well), but generally I use at least 1 or 2 cups worth of stock at a time, any leftovers I just use the next day. Also the smaller packages are easier to add to things. I used to freeze my stock in bigger batches and this was always a bit of a challenge for me. I still portion the same way as show in the Drill-down but I just use a small measuring cup and smaller bags http://rouxbe.com/drilldowns/31

It may take a bit more time to portion out the stock, but you will be glad you did it later. Hope this helps!

I have heard that cracking and roasting bones before making stock will add even more flavor. It would add more marrow and a roasted flavor, I would think. Do you recommend this practice? How would you go about doing this? What type of dishes might benefit from this procedure?

Roasting the bones is a great way to add flavor. Check out the lesson on "Dark Stock" to see how it's done. http://rouxbe.com/school/sections/12/objectives

With the long slow cooking it is not totally necessary to break the bones (this is generally used more for making short stocks). If making a veal stock the bones already contain a fair amount of marrow and you will get plenty of flavor from them. Even roasted chicken bones are fantastic and add plenty gelatin and flavor.

As for what type of dishes this would be good for...the list is endless! Stock is used almost everywhere in cooking. If, however, you are asking "what type of stock" would this be good for, perhaps short stock as it requires less cooking time.

Hope this helps...Good Luck!

Thanks for the tips! I will certainly check out the section on dark stock. I hadn't thought about the gelatin content. It would make a wonderful body to the stock.

What are your thoughts about using the oven to simmer a stock?

Good question and interesting thought. I think though that in the case of making stocks the stove top is the better choice...for a few reasons.

1. You are better able to see and monitor the stock on the stove top, to ensure it is only ever simmering.

2. It is also easier to skim impurities and add ingredients

3. It's also much safer - when making stocks there is a large amount of liquid and this would make it difficult and dangerous if you were moving it in and out of the oven.

Hope this helps! Ciao

I made a batch of chicken stock last night using 5 stewing hens (cut up) for my "bones." I did a good job of skimming, and so this morning, when I went to check on the pot, there was not fat cap, and the stock was not gelatinized as usual. Would that be because I used stewing hens instead of wings, backs, thighs, necks or whatever?

I've been making so much stock this winter! Amazing how fast you can go through it. Anyway, time for a new batch and there were no bones, backs or necks at the grocery. I bought a pound and half of feet. Is it ok to use this for stock? Does it seem like too much?

The feet have lots of gelatin and wonderful flavour, prized by the older cultures. Throw them in, with a grandma's pride!

First, if I know that I am not going to use my stock until after it has been refrigerated, do I need to skim? Can I just wait and remove the fat cap? Or does that not get all of the fat and impurities?

Second, when it comes to bouquet garni, am I gaining anything that I couldn't otherwise get when I use my stock later? What I mean is, would it be better to not season my stock if I don't know what i'm going to use it for, that way when I cook my recipe I can season at that point depending on what style of cooking I am using. For instance, if I use a classic french bouquet, then I want to use it for an asian dish, I've limited myself. Or is there something at the point of making the stock that I can't reproduce later in a recipe?

Skimming primarily removes scum, so quite necessary to get those off flavours out of your pot as soon as possible. You can deal with the fat as you please, while skimming or later. I prefer to skim the fat as it prevents the scum from forming freely.

You can flavour your stock with herbs and spices later, but they will need some time - at least 20 minutes - to infuse. So you can do a very neutral-based stock and define it later...or define it sooner. Up to you. If you're using your stock in many different cuisines, best to keep it neutral. Many ways, even with stocks, to skin this cat.

Just to add my two cents here, I would say ALWAYS peel carrots, no matter what you are doing with them. To some people, dishes that use carrots that have not been peeled are disagreeably bitter.

Not everyone can taste this, and to you they might taste fine. I, however, can immediately tell if, for instance, the carrots used in the making of the beef stew I am served were not peeled; the whole stew tastes bitter to me. And it's never a good bitter, it's more like a "Was this beef a little off before they used it in this stew?" kind of bitter.

Probably needless to say, I always peel carrots, no matter the application. I sincerely wish other people would as well. :)

Regarding chicken feet, some people claim that this is the secret to golden chicken broth, like the kind that comes out of a Campbell's can. I've never gotten around to trying it, but in any event, it's all chicken. However, the best source I read recommended blanching and skinning them first, which makes sense to me.

Oh, and ten bucks to make a pot of stock? That sounds like pretty posh stock to me; I always use the cast-offs from other things I've made: chicken backs, the bones my family have already gnawed, and so on. The veggies cost pennies. If a pot of stock cost me ten bucks, I might be tempted to just buy the stuff that comes in boxes, if it weren't for the wonderful way a simmering pot of stock makes the house smell, that is. And, yes, you won't get a clear stock if you mix cooked and raw bones, to which I would reply "So what?" I'm feeding my family, not catering. :)

Oh, and regarding the already gnawed bones, chop them in half so the marrow can get out. And if using these seems unsanitary to you, remember, they simmer for hours.

...about this topic. I cook quite a bit with turkey. I love the flavor that it imparts to a lot of dishes where a red meat might be used. It is so flavorful. I should have some turkey bones to use from things I am making soon. Can I use these bones either with some chicken bones or on their own to make stock? Or will the flavor of the turkey bones be too strong? I should be getting some bones from the local store this week, so if time permits I will be able to do at least some of the practices involving stock. Can't wait!

Absolutely you can use turkey bones. In fact, I often prefer the flavor from turkey bones, particularly if you are making dark stock from them (e.g. you roast the bones - see the dark stock lesson).

As mentioned in the lesson, you can even use the left over bones from a roasted turkey and gain some great flavor.

With stocks, just stick to the key fundamentals, such as starting with cold water, bring to a simmer (don't boil), skim periodically, add your bouquet garni and let simmer.

can u use a blended mirapoix? just curios.

Here's a link to a video on Mirepoix:

http://rouxbe.com/tips-techniques/305-what-is-mirepoix

You can vary a mirepoix to include many different flavor profiles.

In the video, I noticed that you sealed the stock in both a standard ziploc bag and a vacuum sealed FoodSaver bag for storage. I doesn't appear that you pre-froze the stock for the food saver bag, so I was wondering if you could offer some advice for how you pull that off (without the vacuum sucking the stock into the machine, etc.) Thanks!

I often use my FoodSaver with things that contain liquids, such as stocks. I cut the bag big enough so that there is enough excess. Then I simply place the bag on the counter and then sort of fold the plastic over so that it creates a seam or bend...then I just seal it. Sometimes some leaks out but I just clean out the tray.

I have to say, I have the newest version of the FoodSaver and it works really well, I am very happy with it.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the reply, Dawn. To clarify, do you just use the seal button as opposed to the vacuum + seal when doing liquids?

My machine is actually automatic now...it works on sensors, so I just place the bag inside and the rest is taken care of. That being said...I believe my last one I still used "vacuum + seal" (but there was a wet and a dry setting).

There are many definitions for a Bouquet Garni: it is my understanding that a classical bouquet garni consists of only three ingredients: Parsley stems, bay leaves and thyme. This option does not appear on your stock quiz.

Also if vegetables are added too soon during the preparation over extraction will occur and produce undesirable results. Optimum flavour = optimum cooking times for each of the various ingredients used in the preparation.

Here is a Drill-down on Bouquet Garni that goes into even more detail.

Also, as for your statement "Also if vegetables are added too soon during the preparation over extraction will occur and produce undesirable results. Optimum flavour = optimum cooking times for each of the various ingredients used in the preparation."

We here at Rouxbe take a bit more of a flexible approach to learning. By this I mean there is generally not just one way of doing things. For example, stocks are meant to be easy, not complicated. We have been making stocks for years now and they always turn out flavorful with no "undesirable" results. Our goal is to get people to cook more...and if we can just get people to stop buying stock then we are on the right track. Once you repeatedly make stocks and understand the process, this is when you can fine tune them to your liking and palate.

Hope this does not sound condescending as this is not my intention at all...just wanted to clarify. Cheers!

Sooo - I made Nonna's Chicken Stock yesterday (my first attempt ever at stock from scratch). It was great fun, and I don't think I'll be buying ready-made stock any more...but it turned out as murky as a conman's resume. I'm fairly sure this is because I turned up the heat, only to medium low on my new inherited gas stove, mind you--and then caught it bubbling a little more vigorously than "simmer". Questions:
1. Can I still use the stuff?
2. Would it help to reduce it?
3. Is just simmering (with barely a bubble) really enough to kill bacteria? This last one makes me very nervous--probably why I just couldn't leave the heat alone the way I should have.
Thanks,
Amy

Murky smurky...it will still be delicious! Yes this was likely due to it boiling a bit, but don't worry about it. The point is that you are making your own stock and that is what counts. The flavor whether it is murky or clear will pretty much be the same.

I am sure it has happened to all of us, I know it has me.

As for simmering and killing any bacteria, don't worry the simmer is enough to do this. The reason you probably couldn't leave it alone is because it is actually quite fascinating to watch and tinker with. As you make stocks, you will become more familiar with the whole process and soon you will be making it with your eyes closed (well at least with no worries).

Hope this helps!

Encouraging words!

Yes, boiling your stock can cause it to be cloudy, as can mixing cooked and raw parts while making the stock. However, unless you are working in a fancy restaurant, or doing catering, I wouldn't worry about it. Cloudy stock tastes just as good as clear stock, your family will probably like it just fine, and it certainly won't hurt them. And, even if you are serving it to people other than your family, you can tell them it is "rustic," and they will like it, as long as it tastes good.

You can clarify stocks by filtering them through multiple layers of cheesecloth, or with egg whites and eggshells, but the chances are that they will not get perfectly clear anyway, and, really, who cares? Only the snobs. I don't care much about impressing them, do you?

I am finding that the best way for me to make flavorful cooking liquid consistantly is to use the broth method where I take a whole chicken (or parts) and simmer it in water along with vegetables and seasoning.(excellent instruction here on Rouxbe) I will do this whenever I need cooked chicken for a recipe and/or when I need chicken stock. The cooked meat is always a good thing to have on hand. (I freeze it if I am not going to use it right away. And I save tons of money not buying small amounts of chicken here and there or expensive canned chicken or buying canned broth. And I don't have to buy bones! Which seem to be on the costly side here in Kitchener. The same I think could be done with a piece of stewing or braising beef with a nice bone. hmmmmm. More experimentation!

I just had a question: when you say a ratio of 3 to 1 bones to mirepoix, or 1 part veggies to 1 part water for a veggie stock, do you mean by weight?

You can weigh the ingredients, but with things like this you can simply eye ball it, as these ratios don't have to be exact. For example, if you want your stock to have a strong chicken flavor, feel free to use a higher ratio of bones to vegetables. Cheers!

Maybe this is a silly question, but what is the purpose of removing the fat from stocks? How does removing the fat affect the flavor of the stock?

Removing the fat gives the stock a cleaner taste and better mouth feel. Some stocks turn out fattier than others, so if it is left behind it will pool on top of sauces and soups, etc., and become heavier than necessary. Also, the presentation won't be so great if there are puddles of fat on top of the food. Cheers!

In the video for the "How to make stock fundamentals" lesson, about how much stock will I get after making a basic white chicken stock as they did in the video? Is this enough for only one recipe or will this last for a little while? I suppose what I am really wondering is whether or not I will need to frequently make stock in order to have a constant supply in my kitchen. Will this be the case?

Stock is something that most cooks make fairly frequently, but it depends on how much you cook with it, and how much you use each time.

I say make the recipe (which will give you a good amount) and then see how it goes from there. Cheers!

Thanks Dawn, I will do so.

Using the carcass of roasted chicken is supposed to create a white or dark stock?

Just to be sure: the mirepoix to bone ratio is in weight or volume?
I realize that I can eyeball it, but I would still like to know if it is volume or weight.

You can definitely use the bones, skin and fat leftover from roasted chicken. We often make a small pot of stock from leftover roasted chicken or freeze the bones until we have a larger quantity saved up and make a larger batch. The bones inside the chicken will obviously not be roasted/caramelized, so you will wind up with a lighter colored stock. Having said that, you could caramelize the mirepoix to add more flavor and color to the liquid - it's basically up to you.

In terms of ratio, you can measure in volume...but eyeballing it is fine. When it comes to certain things, we are trying to get people away from absolutes and exact measurements, as this gives them much more freedom in the kitchen. If you happen to have 1 cup of carrots on hand when you often use 2 cups...it's no big deal. This is where experimenting with mirepoix comes into play. The most important thing is that you are making stock. Cheers!

What exactly is a mirepoix?
Who invented it?
What flavor (specifically) does it give to a dish?
According to book "The Fundamental Techniques of Classic Cuisine" by the French Culinary Institute it is a type cut but the exactsize wasn't defined.
According to other websites, that a mirepoix is a recipe.
I'm confused. Please make this clear once and for all.

Both contain same ingredients (thyme, bay leaf & parley)and you even mentioned that bouquet garni is much like a tea bag.
What's the rationale behind this?

Here are two Drill-downs that explain both - What is Mirepoix? and What is Bouquet Garni?.

Sachet d'epices simply means "sack or bag of spices", much like a teabag or like the spices wrapped in cheesecloth in the bouguet garni video. Hope this helps!

I've been procrastinating by reading "On Food and Cooking" by Harold McGee. In his section on stocks, he states that for a light stock, you first wash the bones, put them in a pot of cold water, bring the water to a boil, remove and rinse the bones, and then continue as in this lesson.

Is this step useful? Or overkill?

Indeed Harold McGee is right, commonly the first step in making a stock or broth is blanch or wash the bones first. We show this step in the lesson on "How to Make Broth Soup" (which is almost identical to making a broth).

I would say that it does not always have to be done but I often do it, especially when I am making beef broth or stock.

Here is a link to the specific topic in the Broth-Based Soup Lesson.

Hope this helps - Cheers!

Am I right in understanding that if you were to roast the bones as with a dark stock, that blanching the bones has no added benefit?

It is not that the it would have no benefit you just wouldn't want to do it; otherwise the bones would be wet and wet bones would steam in the oven rather than roast. Cheers!

Is there a difference between white and light chicken stock?

Technically there is a difference. White is made using white mirepoix, meaning only onions, leeks and celery (no carrot). A light stock may also mean this for some people but it really just means a light colored stock, as in one where the bones were not roasted. I am sure if a recipe calls for a white or a light stock either could be used. Hope this helps - cheers!

I just made a batch of dark chicken stock. It was wonderful, but it did not gel. So there wasn't obviously a lot of gelatin in the bones. Would adding chicken's feet help it to gel more? I heard that they add a lot of this to stock. As do pig's feet?

Don't be too concerned about your stock not being overly gelatinous this time. Sometimes different batches are just a bit less gelatinous than others. Next time you could either use a higher ratio of bones to water or like you said you could add some chicken feet. Cheers!

After working my tail off making chicken stock, I was disappointed at the lack of robust chicken taste. Though the stock was lovely, clear and fresh tasting it didn't seem to justify all the work. Should it have tasted more chicken-y, or am I just used to the taste of packaged stock? Should I try and reduce it? Help!!

That is a good question, I actually remember the first time I tasted homemade chicken stock, I also thought it was going to have a stronger more chickeny flavor. What I have learned since making my won over the years is that it is not meant to be so strong that it will overpower the flavor of foods.

You are correct that store bought stock often taste very "chicken-y" but that is because they are generally loaded with salt and other flavor enhancers.

If you are looking for a strong fuller-flavored chicken stock I HIGHLY recommend that you make a dark chicken stock. I was amazed the first time I had a roasted dark chicken stock - I literally drank it in a cup it was so rich and delicious. Alternatively you could even add a few more chicken bones to your basic chicken stock. Basically once you learn the process (and it sounds like you have) you can tweak things to your liking. Hope this helps - keep up the good work. Cheers!

Hi Dawn,
I just wanted to let you know that I tried some of my white stock after it had spent the night in the refrigerator. I was shocked by how good it tasted! I've been drinking it straight, something I never would have anticipated doing.

I am having problems getting chicken bones for stock. I have checked super-markets and I get blank stares. Can I use a whole chicken?

I would try calling smaller butchers in your area. Sometimes larger supermarkets won't carry bones because the chickens are processed at another location and shipped to the store. Any small butcher that carries chicken will likely have bones on hand or in the freezer.

If using a whole chicken, we recommend that you to follow the instructions in the lessons on How to Make Broth and/or How to Make Broth-Based Soup. With these methods, you will have leftover, cooked chicken in the end. While the broth will be flavorful, it won't likely be as gelatinous as a stock because less bones are being used. Hope this helps! Cheers!

If there happens to be a kosher market in your area, they're likely to be butchering their own chickens, and will be happy to sell you the bones.

Hi there,

I just shelled about a pound of fresh English peas, and I'm wondering if I should keep some of the empty pods and add them to my "veggies for making stock" bag in the freezer. (I'll give 'em a rinse first, since I didn't bother before shelling.)

Thoughts, O Wise Ones? (I have a garbage disposal, but now I think twice before chucking anything down it!)

Cheers,
Wendy

You sure could try it and see how you like the flavor. They'd probably be really good in a Vegetable Stock. Feel free to add/substitute/use a variety of different veggies in this vegetable stock. Cheers!

Thanks for the quick reply, Kimberley! I'll add a few pods to my veggie bag!

I've made several batches of stock by now. Thanks for the lessons!

One question, I have a 20 quart stock pot and follow your instructions, just use more ingredients. So far so good.

But one question still plagues me. I keep it at such a low simmer that you only see a bubble or two every couple seconds. Which I think is correct.

what I don't understand is why I usually don't see any of the "scum" rise to the surface. To get it to rise to the surface I have to turn the heat up, which causes the stock to actually simmer more bubbles to the surface.

So is it ok that I see an extremely small amount of scum rise to the surface on extreme low heat or should I turn up the heat so I can actually get scum to rise to the surface?

Thanks!

I got lucky right off the bat when I moved to Portland, OR. Can't remember what I googled, but I found a whole sale distributor of all kinds of meats. It's not a butcher, it's a huge warehouse who sells to local restaurants.

Surly most cities with restaurants have a whole sale distributor. Anyway, I buy in bulk, usually about 40lbs of chicken bones and feet at a time and it's fairly inexpensive. They do come frozen but were very fresh when frozen.

The way I see it, if I'm going to have the burner on for 8 to 10 hours, it doesn't cost anymore energy to make 20 quarts as opposed to 5 quarts of stock. And the stock freezes nicely.

Next on my list is a pressure cooker so I can do my own canning and save freezer space.

Go Green and good luck!

You may just need to turn the heat up a tiny bit to obtain a gentle simmer. Just remember that the most important thing is to prevent your stock from boiling. Sometimes there are more impurities than other times. It just depends on the bones and whether or not they were rinsed and/or blanched first. If your stock is flavorful and clear, then try not to over think it. You sound like you are on the right track. Cheers!

Thanks very much for getting back to me so quickly. I just turned the heat up a bit. So true about over thinking.

You're the best!

I cut up my first chicken last night according to the lesson! It wasn't the best job in the world (I kinda forgot about the oyster), but it was satisfying like crazy. I made a small batch of white chicken stock today from the back that turned out really well (seems to be tasty and has lots of gelatin content). Had to say thanks!

I'm quite addicted to this website. :)

I bought some turkey necks (CHEAP!) from the grocery several months ago and froze them right away awaiting the start of my culinary education. I felt ready to try to make some stock last night, but It didn't really come off like the video.
I blanched them first and restarted with clear water. They weren't completely thawed when I started either. I skimmed for four hours but didn't get much of anything. I added mirepoix after the first 45 mins or so, but no other herbs or seasoning. It simmered (probably too low) for 4hrs.
In the end, the muck that I should have been skimming was stuck to the BOTTOM of the pot, and the flavor of the cooling stock was watery and a little greasy. The necks were still very whole and tough.
I'm thinking I had the temperature too low; should have flayed open the necks to cut through the fascia, and probably didn't go long enough. I also probably should have cut the vegetables smaller (I had 3/4 inch pieces or so.)

Thoughts?

A few things. First, don't give up. Stock making takes some practice and before you know it, it will be a breeze to quickly put a stock together.

Were the necks stuck all together in one big frozen bunch? If they were, it'll take longer to fully blanch the bones. Make sure to start the stock in a clean pot. The gunk on the bottom of the blanching pot is nasty so you'll want to either transfer the bones to a new stock pot (if you have a second one) or place the bones into a large colander while you wash out the pot.

Perhaps the heat was a bit too low. In order to prevent the impurities from emulsifying with the liquid, we want to drive home the point that stock should never boil; however, it can simmer gently. The bones won't totally break down during the stock making process. You can chop the necks into smaller pieces (3-4 inches or so). The stock will be more concentrated because you'll need less water to cover. Finally, for the mirepoix, you don't want them too small. One-inch pieces are fine as you don't want them to disintegrate and cloud the stock during the long cooking time.

You can even make a small batch with a leftover carcass from a roast chicken. We often make tiny batches because they are easier to handle. Stock is one of the most valuable things you can have in the kitchen and it will take your cooking to a whole new level, so keep trying. Hope this helps!

I soaked the frozen necks in cool water for an hour or two before starting, so they were defrosted and separate on the outside, but I had to separate them so they were still quite frozen in the middle.
The pot was clean when I started, and the blanch water was murky after the first heat cycle, so I felt like I was on the right track at the time. It was after the 4 hours when I strained the stock that I discovered the bottom was covered in a kind of slimy scum. I've done recipies for stock before and experienced skimming-- the crud on the bottom looked exactly like what I was expecting to see on the top.

Good to know about the size of the mirepoix.

My simmer was REALLY tame. Reviewing the differences between poaching and simmering, I didn't HEAR the water at all.
Also, the vegetables and necks all floated the whole time. I pushed down on the necks to see how deep the water was-- only about 1/4-1/2 inch above the meat-- but with the surfaces complete covered, skimming was hard anyway.

Since it's been tough to find chicken bones at my local stores, I have begun buying whole chickens and bone-in parts, de-boning them myself, and putting the bones in the freezer for stock. I now have more than enough and want to make my first stock the proper way. Do I need to thaw the bones first, or can I just throw them in the pot and bring to a simmer very slowly. The main reason I ask is that I know it's important to start with cold water. But, I live in Houston...in August...and this time of year our water never really gets cooler than luke warm. I figure that starting with frozen bones and adding our "warm cold" water would make cold water, though I realize it may take longer to come to a simmer. Is this ok, or would it be better to thaw the bones and then start with water that has been iced to make it colder?

It is fine to start a stock with frozen bones. We do it all the time because we too "stock up" on leftover bones in the freezer. You are right, it will just take longer to come to a simmer (don't rush it). Your warm/cold water should be okay as the bones are frozen and the water will still be cold as it comes up to the simmer. Happy stock making!

Hi,

Just went through the first lesson on stock making, and wanted to clarify something before I go ahead and spend a couple hours making my first pot.
I would like to make a lot so that I can store it in the freezer. Towards the end of the lesson I noticed that it says to make sure that it has completely cooled before refrigerating/freezing. Also I noticed that you mention, the stock should be boiled before being frozen because bacteria may develop? At what point in time should the stock be boiled?... as it was mentioned not to boil at the beginning.

Thanks!

When making stock it should never be brought to a boil.

It is only later on when you are using the stock to cook with that we say to "For food safety, just make sure your stock always comes to a boil in whatever recipe you’re using it in.".

Hope this clarifies things. Good luck and happy stock making. Cheers!

My training had a much smaller ratio of vegetables to bones. My instructors were insistent on 10% vegetables (by weight) max. The thought was too much vegetables would impart too sweet a flavor from the vegetable sugars, especially carrots. But, that is one school of thought.

We also were a bit more precise in our water - we would measure 1.5 times the weight of bones for the weight of water - not just cover the bones. However, I've never seen that done in a restaurant kitchen - always the "cover the bones by an inch" method. Lastly, we would place the garni in with the mire poix - we wouldn't wait 9and forget!) to put them in at the end. The vegetables I've seen added early as you suggest, or later as other suggested. Two schools of thought again.

You make good points. The amount of mirepoix you use is up to you whether it is more or less as shown in the lesson. What is important is to understand the effect it will have on the flavor and color. Obviously more mirepoix will mask the flavor of the bones and vice versa.

Regarding the amount of water, again, it's a rough estimate. The bones and mirepoix should always be covered but not by too much which would result in a diluted stock. It's a general guideline.

It is also fine to add the bouquet garni earlier in the process, along with the mirepoix (we often do).

The thing about making stock is to just understand what you are doing and why. You will make your own tweaks along the way. If you wind up with a flavorful, clear liquid that is all that matters. Finding that perfect balance that works for you is the art of it. Cheers!

I totally agree - I was just adding my (free!) 2 cents. I often make use of ratios as guidelines, not not locked in concrete rules. I find it makes a consistent product. Some chefs I've worked with are very picky on certain things, more relaxed on others. My particular chef-instructor back in the day harped all the time on the 10% rule - but that was just him.

Bon appetit!

Your free cents are always welcome. :)

You are right that some chefs have very strict rules. We are trying to teach people to just understand the concept and then relax about the rest. There are some guidelines to follow, but cooking doesn't have to be so strict...and only one way.

Thank you for your input - have a great weekend! :)

Would adding a few small frozen pieces of chicken (bones or wings) to the broth affect it negatively?

Would this make a difference if I add thos pieces to simmering or cold water?

The meat on the bones would always boost the flavor and I heartily recommend it. I would not add them frozen however. I'd thaw them and add them to the beginning of the process.

Based on Kimberley S's answer, we can use frozen bones.
Here is the scenario:

I started my stock (water is still cold) and then I remembered that I had a few chicken wings in the freezer that I want to add to the stock.

These wings are frozen and I do not have time to thaw them. Is adding them frozen worse than not adding them at all? Would they impart a bad flavour?

As mentioned in topic 3 of the lesson frozen bones indeed can be used to make stock. I use them quite often and I do not defrost them before I start making the stock. Just proceed as you would with the stock making process.

Frozen bones would only "impart a bad flavor" if they were not fresh before they were frozen (as we mention in the lesson).

Omar, what I would say to you regarding stock making is to relax a bit. I remember when I first started making stock (many years ago now) I thought there were so many rules and if I didn't follow them exactly something terrible might happen. But I am here to tell you that stock making is not full of rules and "must-do's" and "must-don'ts". So relax a bit and don't worry too much. Cheers!

I have a very small freezer so no space for storing 4 liters of stock. Is there any other way to store stock over a long period of time? I'm guessing if you heat it and put it into hot glasses (like you'd do with jam) and inmediately seal it, it should work.

If you cannot freeze your stock then you will need to make smaller batches and store it in the refrigerator. Stock will only last a few days so you will need to use it up quickly and always make sure to bring it to a boil before you use it. Cheers!

I'm about to remove all my stock from my freezers as I'm running out of room and pressure can it.

You cannot can stock in a water bath, meaning just boiling it. The cans (glass jar with two metal lids) will seal, but it will be unsafe to eat because of the low acidity. You need a higher PH to water bath can.

Botulism is a very scary thing, you can't smell it or see it and you might not even know you have it for as many as 10 days. Causes paralysis and other terrible things. Scary stuff and can takes months and months to fully recover.

However, you can safely pressure can it using a pressure canner (not pressure cooker as that's the one you actually cook the food in).

I paid $200 for my pressure canner, but I didn't have to. You can find them much much cheaper on craigslist, Amazon, etc., like maybe $35 to $100. If you pick up a used one, call your county extension to have them check the gauge and seals for you. They'll do it for free.

And, before you pressure can anything, try it out first with jars of water with some blue food coloring in it. That way, if something goes wrong, you don't ruin your food and if you have blue all over inside the canner, you'll know for sure something went wrong. Frankly, it's hard to screw up pressure canning. There's very few steps.

The lowest flame on my stove for somethings is too high so I usually end up with stuff burned right in the center of the bottom of the pot, especially stock.

Just wanted to mention on Amazon I found this $4.00 metal flame tamer that has a bunch of tiny holes to go between the burner and pot.

I can't believe how well this things works. So far I've simmered tomato sauce for a few hours, frozen milk braised pork, frozen stroganoff, frozen potato leek soup, butter, chocolate, and many other things that would normally burn.

I didn't have to stir anything and I didn't have to add water to anything either. This cheap little tool is unbelievable and going to be a real life saver to finally get the correct temperature for my stocks without anything getting stuck to the bottom.

I'm still shocked every time I use it, because I usually get busy and forget to check my pots and end up burning stuff all the time. I don't think I could burn something now even if I tried.

Jude thank you for your comment. It was very helpful. In case someone else who (like me) doesn't know about pressure canning stumbles upon this thread check this link: http://www.pickyourown.org/pressurecanners.htm.

I've frozen my stock in the ziplock bags and they look great in the freezer, but what's the best way of getting them out without spilling any stock? Also what if I need just a half cup or so? Do they refreeze well?

We usually tear the bag or cut it open with scissors and place the whole frozen block into a pot to heat. We don't thaw the packages before emptying them (but it doesn't mean you cannot defrost them).

It is convenient to store stock in 1 or 2 cup packages, so you use up it up when you thaw it. Thawed stock will keep in the refrigerator for a few days, so you'll be able to use it in other dishes that you cook. For food safety reasons, always remember to bring it to a boil when using. Hope this helps. Cheers!

Run the bag under cold water to loosen the contents for just a few seconds. I "put up" one cup/8 oz at a time, in one zip lock baggie as I don't like wasting an ounce of my precious "gold".

Then tear the bag open from the top where the zip lock is. I mean like grab the zip and rip the entire thing off the entire top of the bag all at once. Like, don't open the "zip" tear the zip off the top of the bag in one motion.

Problem is getting the square frozen stock to fit in a small round pan. Which really isn't a problem, just break off the edges.

If you had a flame tamer you could drop the whole thing into the pot and walk away. Nice. You could still do that without one, just keep a closer eye on it.

Frankly I'm getting tired of thawing stock, so I'm gonna try canning it. Most all the recipes on this site call for only one cup or two cups of stock. So I have frozen one cup portions. If you reduce the stock, you can get even smaller portions.

Will be back with results.

I'd like to keep the bones covered in the liquid but I've done chicken and veal stock now and the bones keep floating to the top, which makes skimming difficult.

Any tips on this?

Thanks.

The bones will just naturally float. The mirepoix on top should help to keep them under somewhat...but try not to over think it. Cheers!

I came across the suggestion in the Culinary Institute of America's book the Profesional Chef that vegetables should be added near the end (around the last hour) of cooking for stock like the sachet. The reasoning is that, if added earlier on, the flavor will be leeched out before the stock is finished and the taste will become bitter. Which method is preferred: adding vegetables early on or in the last hour? Does this principle hold any weight?

Every resource will have an opinion of its own. We prefer to add the vegetables after the scum from the bones has been skimmed. The point of adding vegetables is to extract their flavor in order to flavor the liquid. Now, cutting the vegetables too small & overcooking them can make them disintegrate into the liquid and cause the stock to turn cloudy...and depending on the chosen veg, yes, it could impart a bitter flavor. However, adding them only during the last hour may also not give them enough time to release their flavor.

As you make more and more stock - and you will, because once you start cooking with it, you'll be hooked - experiment for yourself. That's the best way to tell if you prefer one method over the other and if you can tell the difference in flavor. As long as the cook is following the basic fundamentals of simmering (and not boiling), skimming, etc., the tweaks here and there come down to personal preference. Hope this helps!

Are there any issues with using a strainer insert in the stock pot? You load your bones and vegetables in to make it easier to strain out the solids when the stock is complete. I assume it would not make any difference

Using a strainer to make stock is not necessarily something that we would recommend, at least not as a "making stock technique". The main reason for this is because it can be misinterpreted. By this I mean that some may use a smaller strainer, some may have a strainer that does not go very deep, some may have strainers that have holes up the sides which could be dangerous and messy when it comes time to strain the stock. Also, if the strainer does not reach the bottom of the pot then one would likely end up using more water then necessary.

Of course all that being said, if you want to try it then you can. In the end if you are happy with the results then that is what matters. Cheers!

I'm trying to figure out how to best use the left over turkey carcass from Thanksgiving. I have made a stock using the directions here. After simmering for a while, I discovered the skin left an off-taste to the stock. I removed the skin at that point and then added some left-over gravy to smooth out the texture/flavor.

Just wondering if anyone had some successful tips on best way to make soup from the carcass.

Will try to remove more of the skin next time, but it left me wondering what others are doing.

Thanks.

We often use the leftover bones and skin from leftover turkey/chicken carcasses to make a yummy stock. You do not need to discard the skin prior to making stock; however, keep in mind that whatever seasoning you put on the bird will impact the flavor of the stock. We freeze leftover and then make a bigger batch, but you can make a smaller stock with just one carcass - it's up to you.

By adding gravy to the stock, this will definitely impact the color and clarity of the stock, but if it tastes good, that's all that counts.

To make stock-based soups, make sure to check out the lesson on How to Make Stock-Based Clear Soups. This lesson shows you how to make soup by building layers and adding a homemade stock. Cheers!

I attempted my first stock last night. I was trying to make a dark chicken stock for the chicken marsala recipe today. My stock came out with a very red color and the bones were not complete when I removed them. Also, when I woke up the top 1/4 inch was all red, then half was a cloudy dark but solid looking part, and the very bottom 1/4 inch looked like stock. Can you point me in the right directtion?

When stock congeals in the fridge the top layer is fat. This layer can turn red - simply remove this. The next layer is congealed because it has gelatin - this is good stuff and will melt when heated. The last layer is more liquidy.

Now, it sounds like your stock boiled rather than simmered, which will make it cloudy. Also, it sounds like you may have not skimmed the stock enough during cooking. Remember the keys to stock making: simmer and skim off not only scum but fat (chicken bones render a lot of fat).

Stock needs attention and a bit of experience and observation. This is an opportunity for you to make a better one and learn more about how cooking works and developing your culinary instincts. As a teacher I come across cloudy stocks on a daily basis - but students do eventually learn to make them right with practice.

Well, I made my first white stock and it came out pretty good! Looks like the video and have a fat cap today to skim. But what I really want to know is do you have to have fresh uncooked bones? Can you us the leftover bones from dinner?

Congratulations on your first stock! Yes, you can use leftover, cooked bones in stock. If you read through this thread, there is some discussion on it. Happy cooking!

I really like how it's demonstrated that good stock should not be boiled. The graphical demonstration with the diced carrot really hammers this point home. I've found that most cookbooks don't really make this distinction...Thanks!

-rich

My Aunt Mary taught me to make chicken soup like this. I watched the lessons regarding stocks and broths and am a little confused. After reading the cluinary school experience of Michael Ruhlman, it seemed to me that stocks were made using bones which were browned in the oven first. Also, I read in that book that if you place the pot a little off the center of the fire when simmering, it is easier to skim the stock as the scum forms on the opposite side of where the small bubbles are coming up. Thanks for the information on cooling the stock. A friend used to work in a cafeteria and she told me that everything needed to be cool before storing, but we couldn't figure out why.

There are many cooks and cooking schools that will say or do things differently. After one learns the basics of something they are then free to tweak things to suit their needs. This is how we (and most schools and professionals) make stock. Stock can be made "white" by not roasting the bones and stock can be made "dark" by roasting the bones (which can also include roasting the vegetables). Here at Rouxbe we make both kinds of stock on a regular basis depending on what we are using the stock for. I suggest you try to make either one or the other (or both if you are feeling inspired) and see which one you prefer.

Hope this helps to clear things up for you. Cheers!

What is the best type of chicken to use for stocks. I know there are roasters and fryers, but the stock doesn't taste as good as sometimes. I think I may be using too young of a chicken. Is there a difference?

Not sure if you are referring to making chicken stock or chicken broth? When we make chicken stock we use the backs and necks (of any type of chicken, young or old). Cheers!

Right about the stock, but regarding broth, then, what type of chicken is best?

This really comes down to personal preference, where you buy your chicken, how much you can afford, what is available to you etc. I have made many delicious broths using regular grocery store (often younger) chickens with great results. For more info on young and older chickens, I would recommend that you watch the lesson on Poultry Fundamentals (if you have not already). Cheers!

I live alone and even 2 cups of stock is usually too much for most of the recipes that I make. Is is possible to can the stock in 1/2 pint jars of pint jars and how much time would be necessary to process. Love the lectures.

In terms of the stock-making process itself, you can't get around the time that it takes to make it.

It is possible to can stock (I have never done this) - see the comments above in this thread on that subject.

But, I must say...once you get into the habit of making your own stock, 2 cups is really nothing. If you learn how to make a good soup, or cook some rice or grains, or even make a pan sauce...even if you live alone, you'll go through it quickly. When we prepare a big batch, we even drink it like tea - a good cup of chicken stock warms the soul!

Don't be discouraged from making stock. A small batch can be made with just one carcass. Cheers!

Just wondering if anyone reserves leftover fat from the stock making process for use in other applications? Or is there a reason not to do so?

I suppose you could use it to make a roux or something like that. Cheers!

I am really having problems finding any store around that carries any type of bones anymore. I bought a 10lb bag of leg/thigh quarters that were fairly inexpensive. I was thinking of cooking the legs and stripping the meat for my dogs and then using the bones for the stock. Is that an acceptable substitute?

Good thinking Kevin. I have done this before as well. Also, while of course your dog will be super happy with eating the meat, if you wanted you could save the meat and use it in other dishes if you like (see the "How to Make Broth" and "How to Make Broth-Based Soup" lessons for more details). Good luck and happy stock making. Cheers!

how long should I cool the stock in the ice bath? Should I allow it to conjeal before refrigerating, or should I refrigerate before this occurs?

The stock should only be in the ice bath until it has cooled. Stir the stock to bring the temperature down as quickly as possible. Once the stock has completely cooling transfer it to the refrigerator (as per Topic 7). Any conjealing that may occur will only happen after the stock has been refrigerated for several hours (as per Topic 8). Hope this helps. Cheers!

When I am out of premium freezer space, is there an appropriate method to can stock?

We do not can stock at Rouxbe; however, if you read through the thread above, some Rouxbe users have attempted this and have also made several comments on the site. Cheers!

I noticed that Jude O. was thinking of canning her stock, I wondered if she has tried it yet? I have the "Ball Book of Home Canning", and I can pressure can it, but just haven't tried it, yet. I would love to know if anyone has, and if they noticed any taste differences to fresh made stock. By the way, I have been reviewing this site for the Cooking Club of America for the last two weeks, and I am very impressed!! Cheers right back to you!

thought i knew all about stocks but i was wrong. i learned more

I noticed the video showed a package labled reduced chicken stock, How long do you cook it to reduce, and how do you use it in recipes(how strong is it.)?

Reduced chicken stock is a cinch to make once you have your stock made. Here is a link to a video on Reducing Chicken Stock (see Step 4). Here is another link to Dark Veal Stock (see Step 3).

How long it takes to reduce depends on how much you started with, how high the heat is when reducing and how far you want to reduce it. Same goes for the strength of the stock. The further you reduce it the stronger it will be. See the related videos for more information about this. Cheers!

Another great lesson!
I've been making stock for years using of the carcasses of roasted chickens and turkeys and have always been happy with the results. However, it seems I've making a few glaring mistakes. I've generally had the temperature slightly above simmer, and have always stirred the pot several times during the process. It never occurred to me that I could get a clearer stock by changing these 2 things. I've also always bought chicken parts (yes, more expensive, I know) but after the "Cutting up a Chicken" lesson, I'll now buy whole chickens and freeze the bones until I have sufficient for a big pot of stock. Some time ago, a chef-friend told be about freezing in bags - takes up so much less freezer space.
For Donna C. - Ball now makes plastic freezer jars in 1-cup and 2-cup sizes. Very convenient for freezing small amounts of liquids.
I'm loving Rouxbe and am grateful to Cooking Club of America for

I live in a very small town and are grocery store doesn't always have fresh herbs. I am wanting to make my first stock today and found everything except bones and fresh tyme, so i bought whole chickens and plan to cut them up to get the bones but I am going to have to use dried thyme is there any suggestions on how much ground thyme I should use?

Generally, when substituting dried for fresh, it is about 1 tsp. of dried to 3 tsp. of fresh; however, if you are using ground thyme, I would suggest you just add a pinch or two so you do not overpower the stock. Alternatively, you could even leave it out altogether. It's up to you.

For more information on using herbs, you may want to check out the lesson called "How to Use and Cook with Herbs". Hope this helps. Cheers!

I've never made fresh stock - always used store bought in cans or those little cubes. I can't wait to give it a try. Thanks for a great lesson.

I live in north eastern Colorado and I cant find bones I have asked grocery stores and a few butcher shops for both chicken bones beef and veal bones and I'm getting nothing. Is there an online source for bones?

I did an online search by typing in "where to buy beef bones in north eastern Colorado" and found a few places that might sell bones online. I also typed in "where to buy bones online" and found this site that names a few places that apparently sell online.

Other than that you might also want to call local restaurants (you may need to look for fancier restaurants that would make their own stock for pan sauces etc.) to see where they buy their bones. Hope this helps. Cheers!

Thanks Jude, for your comments on canning stock, and the pressure cooker. I've often wondered a little about canning. I'd like to know a lot more about canning as I become more involved with Rouxbe and start making all the sauces, stocks, etc. Any suggestions on a website, or the manufacturer of your pressure cooker? Also - for the Rouxbe staff: You think canning / pressure cooking will be covered here in the Rouxbe School? Thanks!!

Canning is typically not something that is covered in culinary school. For now we are more about the fundamentals of cooking. That being said, this may be something that we cover down the road. Cheers!

I made the white stock following the video. It turned out so beautifully clear, great color, and so flavorful. I impressed myself! I guess we all learn to cook along the way but we learn from Mom or someone and the way they did it. I always was taught to bring the stock to a boil and then simmer -- no wonder it was always cloudy. What a fun way to learn the proper way to do things by setting the lap top right up on the kitchen counter and cook right along with you!

I have been having a hard time finding back and neck bones for stock. We live in the country and it is to far for me to drive to the butcher on a regular basis. With that said, I did find a local, grass fed farm that sells "head and feet". I'm assuming I can use this to substitute the back and neck, but I'm wondering if there is a benefit to using back and neck instead.

You can definitely use these parts of the chicken to make stock. The backs and necks of chickens may offer more flavor and collagen but certainly give the other parts a try following the instructions in the lesson.

If you are having a hard time finding a butcher that sells these, you can always save the bones from chickens that you cut up yourself. Store them in the freezer and once you have a few pounds, it's easy to make a batch of stock. Cheers!

Hello Staff :
Why does a stock need to be cooled in an ice bath before placing it in the refrigidator to prevent bacteria from multiplying since the refrigidator also cools it?
Thank you,
Juan.

The temperature needs to be brought down as quickly as possible. If you were to simply but it in the fridge to cool down it would take a very long time for it to cool down. It would also bring up the temperature of the refrigerator which you definitely do not want. Cheers!

I made the white stock last night and it came out delicious. My question is, how do you know when the stock is done? I followed the practice recipe for white stock and after 1.5-2 hrs it had a barely noticeable chicken flavor (almost none at all). I kept tasting it on the hour and each time it would get better and better. At the 5 hour mark I finally decided to call it quits, as I was worried that it might over-reduce to something other than stock, but I have a suspicion that if I had let it continue to cook, the increasingly intense chicken flavor would have continued to taste better and better to me, so at this point I am not sure what kind of visual or tasting cues to look for to know that the stock is done. Any hints?

You can overcook stock to the point where the vegetables break down and the water becomes murky. This will take a very long time though. Chicken stock can be gently simmered for 4 or 5 hours. That is plenty of time to extract the flavor from the bones and mirepoix. Veal or beef stocks that use much larger bones and mirepoix can be gently simmered over night for 12 to 16 hours or so. Hope this helps. Cheers!

I am new today, and loving every lesson. And all your questions are great and helping alot. Thanks Connie

Can the stock be simmered with the lid on? The lesson really doesn't say, unless I overlooked it. From other lessons I understand that things like green vegetables can't have the acid dripping back in the water when cooking in water, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. And cooking with the lid on once the impurities have been skimmed off would be a lot more efficient in terms of energy and helping to minimize evaporation.

I do not know of any professional kitchens that cover or use a lid when making stock. When making stock it is always a good idea to be able to see what is happening in the pot e.g., whether is it simmering/boiling etc.

If you really want to use a lid then just be sure it is slightly ajar. Cheers!

When making stock or recipes that call for whole ingredients (peppercorns, garlic pods, etc), what's the difference between doing that and addind a small amount of the crushed ingredient?

While crushed can be used, whole is better, especially when making stock. Because of the long cooking time, the flavor of the spice slowly infuses the liquid. Whole spices can also be strained out at the end to keep the stock very clear. Crushed pepper is harder to remove. Cheers!

I made some white chicken stock last night ( I used 1 carcass and one packet of neck from local butcher). Think it turned out pretty well on the flavour front. However it was incredibly salty - even though I did t add a single bit. In the end I just froze as it was. Guess it will still be ok but will jut need to use less of it and add some more water when it comes to using it!

I am perplexed as to how the stock could be too salty if no salt was added at any point. Where you using kosher chicken bones by chance, as they are salted? Cheers!

yes - it was kosher! I know kosher meat is salted, but its usually fine. Now and again you come across one which is horribly over salted!

Oh well, at least it wasnt anything I did!

These are some of the additional challenges I have to face by keeping kosher!

I was intrigued by a former poster discussing Harold McGee's stock making process, which included prewashing, then blanching, and then post washing of the chicken bones followed by a return to the simmering pot. Only the first part of the poster's question appeared to be answered. The second part of the question -- the reason for washing after blanching -- did not receive a response. Put another way, could washing the bones remove the requirement for skimming the stock through the simmering process.

The reason that I am curious about this method (washing after blanching) is that I wonder if I can create a clear chicken broth with no off flavors overnight in a crockpot (with a tipped lid) by only simmering the bones, then finishing the broth on the stove top with a 1 hour mirepoix addition, and then the garnet bouquet? If so, then this would be a serious time-saver for me.

The Rinsing/blanching/rinsing has to do to the fact that if your bones all a bit "off" you can salvage them, it also reduces the amount of impurities IE scum that come to the surface. Now, do realise that some of the flavour will be lost doing that process, yet not a lot because it takes time for the flavour of the chicken to be released, so in short, I have done both, I don't think you will see a clear advantage doing the rinsing, blanching, rinsing method.
I still recomend to get fresh bones, rinse them if you want and proceed as explained.
For the crockpot alternative, it is definitely worth a try, indeed the stock may be even more clear. Yet once you find the "sweet spot" for your stove the stock can gently simmer, which will be just as good. Also, keep in mind that when using a crock pot you will not be able to make very much stock. Hope this helps.

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my poorly worded question. Perhaps I should take a French class next? :)

My personal goals with the Rouxbe school are to improve my cooking spontaneity without reducing my quality of life. In other words, I enjoy cooking, but this is probably because I do not feel like I am a slave to my stove. For this reason, it is helpful to know that the blanching can reduce the scum level in white stocks. Using this modification in conjunction with a crockpot (assuming the stock does not boil and emulsify in the process) may reduce the amount of time that is required for me to babysit the stock. It would be a rare day that I would have the opportunity or even the desire to stay inside and skim the stock once per ½ hour (or so) for 4+ hours duration. Further, making smaller batches of stock also solves a potential storage problem. I would be an unlikely candidate for canning my stock and I do have limited freezer space. For most things that I make, a 2 1/2 to 3 quart batch is probably more my speed -- especially if I want to keep a wide variety of stocks on hand in my freezer.

I tried the blanching (2 minutes) and crockpot method this morning, but with pork bones rather than chicken. The blanching did generate a lot of frothing and scum residue on the bottom of the original pan. I then washed the bones and transferred them to a larger 6 quart programmable crockpot. I was able to fit 8 lbs of pork neck bones (conveniently purchased from a local Asian market), and to top with 3 quarts of cold water. It took about ½ hour for the water to reach a simmer on “high”. Once up to temperature, I tipped the lid, put it on low temperature and I left the house. I have arrived back home 6 hours later. It had a fat layer that required skimming -- and because of this, I really appreciated the Rouxbe instructions for rapid skimming as that technique came in handy. The stock seems reasonably flavorful and since it did not boil or generate a lot of scum, it looks quite clear. I will probably finish the stock with the mirepoix and the bouquet garni on the stovetop later this evening. I will enjoy using this stock for Mexican cuisine.

Thanks again for the inspiration!

I have five leftover carcasses of roasted Cornish Game Hens. I threw them in a pot with water to simmer.

Is this going to make a good all purpose stock or will it be weird.

I hate throwing things away like this so I thought I'd come here for advice.

BTW, what is a Cornish game hen? It tasted really good, but what is it really?

Thanks!

You can use any type of poultry bones to make stock. The flavor of cornish game hens is very similar to chicken. Also, here is a drill down on Types of Poultry. Cheers!

I’ve made several different types of stock this week, and realized that this is can be a pretty messy job that has the potential to spread bacteria if things are not properly sanitized afterwards. I do have a designated cutting board that I use for raw meats only. As I was cleaning/ sanitizing my sinks, countertops and cutting boards, I realized that one of the cutting boards that I have been using a lot for stock making is made of bamboo. They are becoming really popular because of their eco-friendly reputation. This one was given to me as a gift. The rest of my cutting boards are traditional wood. I have been using the bamboo cutting board as a surface to place my large strainer filled with hot bones because it has a trough to catch a small amount of residual liquids while I am waiting for the bones to cool enough to dispose.

I use wood because of it’s natural anti-bacterial qualities. ie: http://www.peter.hemsley.btinternet.co.uk/CDB/Technical/Bacteria/bacteria.html

Wikipedia, which has become my most favorite source of info about all sorts of odd subjects, does not have any information about whether bamboo might be treated like wood, or, if it is better to treat like plastic. Put another way, does bamboo also have natural anti-bacterial qualities, or should I dispose of the bamboo cutting board as the surface becomes more scarified (like one would do with plastic) to prevent harmful bacteria from lodging in the cracks causing contamination that is resistant to bleaching.

I don't believe that bamboo cutting boards have any special anti-bacterial qualities. They should be washed and sanitized just like other wooden cutting boards. For more information on cutting boards you may also want to search the forum for "cutting boards" there you will find several other threads about this subject. Cheers!

I have to say I absolutely love your site. I’m a visual learner and it’s nice to have a place to “see” what roast until you achieve a “nice dark color” really means. But I’m off topic. My question is this. Your video says to remove the solids and then strain the stock, but then I’ve also read to ladle the stock out disturbing the solids as little as possible, straining the stock through a sieve as you go. I’m thinking that either method is fine as long as you are consistent. In other words use either method, just don’t dump the whole thing wholesale through a colander to separate. Does it matter which method is used, and if so why? Personally I think your method is easier, but just wondering if it really matters.

I would not over think it too much. Straining as we do in the lesson is much easier and it still produces a clear stock. What is more important when stock making is to make sure that the stock does not rapidly boil so that the ingredients do not start to break down which would result in a cloudy stock.

You best bet would be to make a stock and then strain half of it one way and the other the other way to see if it makes a difference to you, both visually and flavor-wise. That way you know what works best for you. And if one method is more work is it worth the extra work? Perhaps it is but then again perhaps it's not. Hope this helps. Cheers!

p.s. We are very glad that you are enjoying the site :-)

Hi!
I'm making my chicken stock for the first time, and it suggests to simmer for 30 min before adding the mirepoix. If I wanted to let the stock simmer for longer (for about 6-8hours) should I add the mirepoix in at 30min as suggested then let everything simmer together for the rest of the time? Or should I just let the chicken simmer for a few hours on its own then add the mirepoix? Any help/recommendation is greatly appreciated! Thanks :)
-Mariko

The reason the bones are simmered for about 30 minutes before the mirepoix is added is that most of the impurities from the bones rise to the surface during this time, which makes the stock easier to skim. After the stock has simmered for about 30 minutes, add the mirepoix. The longer the mirepoix is in the water, the more flavor will be extracted from it. Happy stock making! Cheers!

I have watched all of the videos on stocks and broths and do have three questions. After making the stock or broth and refrigerating it over night, is there any reason to keep the solid fats that you remove? I have heard that duck fat can be used and is expensive to buy for frying. Is there anything the chicken or beef/veal fat can be used for? If so what would be the best way to keep it?

The fat can be saved and used to make things like roux (see the lesson on Braising for more information on this). My mother also used to save it and use it when frying certain foods. Cheers!

Thank you Dawn.

It seemed to me that there should be a lot of flavor there that shouldn't just be thrown away.

I have truely enjoyed my trial period with Rouxbe. My husband is concered I will have withdrawal pains when my time is up. I was quite upset over the 4th of July when my portable internet modum stopped working and I couldn't check you out for 2 and 1/2 days durung a camping weekend.

I have always loved collecting and reading cookbooks, but I must say, viewing your receipes online is great. The food not only looks great but the directions are easy to understand and follow.

Forty three years ago, my favorite wedding shower gift was a set of two cookbooks. Next time a family member or friend is getting married, I plan to ask others to join me in giving a membership to your cooking school as a wedding or shower gift.
Sandy

I've been thinking of how to modify the instructions such that I can make stock in my slow cooker - it's just so much more accomodating for my lifestyle. I saw one email that touched on this, but do you have any more suggestions?

Love your classes!

We do not use this method to make stock and must stress that it is very simple to make even a small pot of stock on the stove top. The stove top method will properly bring the stock up to temperature to draw out the impurities from the bones. For the best results, this is just one of those things in cooking that you need to set time aside to do, which ultimately is not that much. Once you get into the habit of making stock, you will see how very easy it is and how little time it actually takes. Cheers!

Okay this lesson was easy for me. I scored 100% on it. However I was wondering if it is do able to make a good stock from the juces when I do a crock put meal on those days I don't have time to be in the kitchen and cook. I've done this with the accept ion of skimming the stock. And made a soup with the left over liquid from the crock pot. Is the crock pot an inferior way or can it work as well? I would love some advice.

Technically, you are not making a stock. You are just using the flavorful liquid from the meal you made to add flavor to another dish and/or soup.

As far as using crock pots to cook, it's up to you. Many people successfully use crock pots to cook many things. In fact, if you search "crock pot" or "crockpot" on Rouxbe you will see quite a few discussions on this subject. Cheers!

I did a dark chicken stock from breast bones. As it didn't solidify after resting overnight in the refrigerator (then I remembered I should have use bones from the backs), I cooked it again with beef bones cut to expose the marrow. After 4 hours of simmering (no bubbles), I ended up with an opaque stock, in which I could see small protein particles suspended. After removing the bones, I then boiled it to reduce further and after 20min the protein particles increased in size and fully separeted from the stock. What did I do wrong? Should I strain to remove the coagulated particles? Did I loose all the thickening properties for a sauce? How can I correct this stock now? Thanks in advance.

Chicken bones will not give you as much gelatin. Since veal bones offer more, it was a good idea to do a combo stock like you did. In regards to protein particles, you likely did nothing wrong there. Depending what you do with the stock, you can either strain it though a cheesecloth or a very fine stainer now or later when your sauce is done. Cheers!

Christophe, what do you think are these particles? Gelatin? Blood?

I strained the stock through a coffee filter and the resulting liquid was beatifully shiny. I noticed that it became thicker as it reduced a little, but after some minutes in the freezer i didn´t solidiy as a jam (I did't check it later). So, does this stock still have gelatin? Thanks

Particles would be coagulated juices/blood. They are not harmful, just unpleasant in certain preparations. If the stock has enough natural gelatin, it will somewhat congeal in the fridge. Hope this helps.

Thanks, Christophe. And what might have caused that coagulation? It hasn´t happend other times.

I just can't say enough how much I have enjoyed the stock I made following this lesson. My favorite is the darker stock. I just love being able to throw homemade stock into my dishes and building up from there.

My homelife doesn't often allow me to babysit stock to make sure it doesn't start boiling, so I'l looking for some practical solutions. Perhaps a digital thermometer with an alarm set at a given temp? Any thoughts?

Simply start on low heat and keep it there for a while. When you come back to it, even if it's not simmering but more like poaching, you're still extracting flavour. However, you will need to eventually simmer it to help bring impurities to the surface for skimming, but you won't need too much time and energy to get it to that point.

Thanks for the input. That's kind of the technique I've been using, with mixed results due to tendency to get distracted sometimes. I also searched around and found the following link with approximate cooking temperatures for the different stages of heated water:
http://whatscookingamerica.net/Information/PoachingSimmeringBoiling.htm

My idea is to use a digi timer set to the upper range of the simmered temp, so that it sounds an alarm when it reaches around 200 F. Might be something.

The approximate cooking temperatures for the different stages of heating water is also cover in detail (both visually and verbally) in the lesson called "Submersion Cooking". Cheers!

I heard some chefs say that you need to wash off blood from the bones(with cold water), so that you get a clearer taste of stock, is that true??

If there is an excess of blood, then yes it should be rinsed off. But as shown in the lesson, a bit of blood is okay as long as it is bright and fresh looking. You could also blanch the bones (see the Drill-down called "Blanching Meat and Bones in Topic 4 or what the lesson on Making Broths for more information on this). Cheers!

A number of members have mentioned the concerns of monitoring the stock to prevent it from boiling (time-consuming)and therefore turn to the Crockpot (small quantity) for convenience. An easy way to resolve both issues is to start the stock in the conventional way on the stovetop, skimming the surface after 30 - 45 minutes or so of simmering, and then put the pot in a preheated 180 - 200 degree oven for 6-8 hrs. The gentle, even heat of the oven will eliminate the need for babysitting and you get several qts of heaven.

The video mentions 50% onion and 50% carrots and celery and 1 part mirepoix to 3 parts chicken bones. Is that by weight or volume?

The ratio is usually by volume. Just eyeball it :) Cheers!

Can you tell me how I should clean a butcher block after cutting and cleaving chicken on it? I would like to be able to be safe without making the block taste odd.
Thanks Sue

Really HOT soapy water should do the trick just fine. Then just be sure to dry it properly. Also, be sure there are no cracks etc. Cheers!

Thank you Dawn. This sounds much better than trying to use bleach or, as someone wanted to do- Fantastick!!
Sue

Hello,

I was just wondering if you can 'can' home made stock. I might be in the situation of having more chicken bones than I can conveniently keep in the freezer at once and I was thinking of making a bunch of stock and canning it. Is that safe to do? Do you know if I would need a pressure canner, or would just a hot water bath type canner work?
Thanks :)
Amanda

If you read through the discussion for this lesson, there are several posts regarding canning stock. Also, if you type in "canning" in the search bar at the top right of any page, you'll find several other threads. Cheers!

Hi Rouxbe,

I'm making the basic white chicken stock, and it is taking forever to keep getting the foam off of the top. I'm using the edge of a spoon, because I take too much liquid out when I use a ladle. Would it be worth it to buy an actual skimmer?

Thanks,
Michelle

The edge of a spoon will work. We use a ladle or skimmer but it's really not necessary. Don't worry about skimming all of the impurities off the top, just try not to boil it. It's easier if you let a bit more collect before trying to skim.

Bottom line, don't get over stressed about this. You'll still end up with a great base for whatever you use it for. Often I walk away and let a stock simmer for a couple of hours before skimming again.

Congratulations for making your own stock though.

Cheers,
Joe

Once you get the stock to it's final desired state, you can also then just reduce it again by 50% or 75% (just keep track of how much you have reduced it) and then freeze in smaller portions. e.g. you can take a quart of stock, reduce it to 1C then freeze. Add 3 cups water when you thaw and you are right back where you started. It takes up much less space in the freezer and it's easy to just re-constitute with the appropriate amount of water. I am freezer space constrained too, but this works well for me. Also beats the hassle of canning I think.

If you are short on space, you could reduce the stock down and then reconstitute it when it's time to use it. Cheers!

I made my first chicken stock today, and came across a couple of things that I hadn't seen, or at least don't remember, being mentioned. While cleaning the backs that I bought from the butcher, I removed the big chunks of fat that was sometimes attached to a piece of skin. Also, I dug out and washed the kidneys (?) that were still in the recesses of the back.

I assumed that the fat would just render and I'd have more ladling to do, and . . . well . . . honestly I'm just not sure how I feel about about eating organs--especially ones with which I have no idea of how they were handled (i.e., were they kept at a cold temperature the entire time they were being processed. I suspect that, at worst, they would break up and I'd have to skim them out of the stock and they may impart some odd flavors.

The bottom line question is, would I be missing out on flavor by removing the fat and offal, or would the stock be significantly richer by leaving them in?

Thanks :)

Yes, keeping the fat in the stock would mean ladling more rendered fat, and some chefs clean out as much fat as possible. I prefer to keep it in because some of the flavouring agents of fat are water soluble. Chefs may keep it out, but grandmas keep it in.

Grandmas also keep in the organs. You would be leaving out nutrients if you omit the organs, but they lend flavours that are not to everyone's taste. This would be up to you.

Thanks, Tony. I sounds like I need to make some micro-batches and compare the results.

I used to make plum wine from fresh plums, and after fermentation we had to scoop the pulp out and then strain the wine through cheesecloth. I was taught to wet the cheesecloth first, so as not to lose so much valuable (and tasty) wine as it soaked into the cheesecloth.

So, my question is, when straining the stock, should the cheesecloth be wet, water wet, first?

It is not necessary to wet the cheesecloth when straining stock. In fact, using cheesecloth, which can sometimes be expensive, is not absolutely necessary, a strainer or china cap would also work well.

Just keep in mind the finer the divise used to strain the stock the clearer your stock will be; however, the finer the strainer (or cheesecloth) the longer it will take to strain. I often strain my stock once through a larger strainer and then restrain it a second time using one that is a bit finer. Hope this helps. Cheers!

Thanks, Dawn. Just finished my first stock. It's chilling in the ice bath now, and then I move it to the fridge. Next time, I'll have to halve the recipe, because the large stock pot I have was JUST big enough to handle this recipe. And by "just" I mean the liquid level was right at the top during the final period of cooking, after everything had gone in. And it made a LOT of stock. (grin) Freezer, here we come.

Matthew, good luck with your stock and all of the many dishes that you are going to use it in. Remember that if you are short on space in your freezer you can always reduce the stock (or part of it). This will not only save space in the freezer, it will also concentrate the flavor of the stock.

In fact, we usually do this with our stocks. Actually we have a big pot of it currently reducing in the kitchen as I type this. This may sound weird but we actually drink the stock like tea throughout the week. It's delicious, healthy and very satisfying. Cheers!

Okay, just ruminating, here. I noticed some of the earlier posts here talked about this or that batch being gelatin, and others not. At one point, Dawn said: "Don't be too concerned about your stock not being overly gelatinous this time. Sometimes different batches are just a bit less gelatinous than others."

So, my question is this. What about the ingredients in chicken stock makes the "gelatin"? If I want to make sure the stock is gelatinous, what should I make sure to do? I made my (first!) stock with 4 pounds of chicken necks and 2 pounds of chicken backs. Is either better than the other, gelatinously speaking?

Good thought, Dawn, I hadn't considered reducing the stock, but I can see the advantages. That's an incredibly good idea. Thanks!

a stuffed cabbage recipe even though it has lamb in it? I don't want the white rice to turn dark. The primary flavors of the dish are garlic and lots of lemon.

Yes chicken stock, which tends to be more neutral in flavor than say a lamb stock, can be used in many dishes, even if they have lamb in them (see the lesson on "How to Make Short Stock" for more about this). Cheers!

So the dish is cooked in a big pot with water just covering the stuffed green cabbage (cabbage is stuffed with white rice, ground lamb, allspice, salt and pepper, garlic and finished with lots of lemon) If I replace all the water with white chicken stock do you think that would equate to YUMMY or "why does this dish taste like chicken? " What's your advice ratio wise?

Thanks in advance!

You could certainly use chicken stock instead of water. It really depends on the dish. Sometimes water is enough when combined with all of the other flavors in the dish. Then again, sometimes stock is worth using instead as it may add an additional and welcomed layer of flavor. As you mentioned, you could also use a combination of liquids.There are no real ratios as it is up to you and the flavors that you are looking for. The best way to truly know is to test the dish using just water, then just stock and then use a combo. This is how chefs often determine what works, they test it. Hope this helps. Cheers!

Thanks again Dawn. The chicken stock came out fantastic, though with little bits of fat all through out after refrigeration (no fat cap) so I just left them in for extra flavor? I used a bit of it to make a pan sauce for some pork chops I had made and they came out delicious! I then cooked more of the pork chops a few days later without the chicken stock because it was frozen and they didn't turn out nearly as good. I'm sold on making stocks from scratch! I think I will try the cabbage dish with all stock instead of water and see what happens : ).

Crabs are in season right now, and I was thinking about making a crab & corn chowder. The recipe that I usually use calls for canned clam juice to increase the seafood flavor. I have been noticing, though, several crab recipes -- including crab cioppino and Kerala crab curry -- that call for crabs in the shell. Do crab shells impart flavor to the cioppino sauce and the crab curry? If I shell my own crabs for the crab & corn chowder, can I make a crab stock from the shells to freeze and use later in other dishes?

I made a stock then left it in the fridge for two days and the froze it. After I thaw it to use some can I refreeze the rest again?
Thanks in advance.

Yes, for liquids such as stocks, you can refreeze it. Just make sure to bring it to a boil before using for food safety.

My butcher can only supply frozen chicken bones for making stock.

Defrosting the chicken in the refrigerator is messy, and takes several days for the 5 lb blocks of bones.

I was considering starting the stock with the 5 lb blocks of bones in water and just slowly simmering until the bones loosen up and then initiate the stock making process in the same water once the bones were liberated from the clump.

Are their downsides to this technique from a flavor perspective? Should the bones be thoroughly thawed before the process is initiated?

This may also be a way to minimize the amount of bioburden on the chicken.

I always save my chicken bones in the freezer until I have enough for a big batch of stock. I just throw them straight from the freezer bag into the roasting pan. After 5-10 minutes, it is easy to break up the frozen blocks of bones with a pair of tongs and finish roasting as per the recipe. I have had no problems with this approach and always get a rich, dark, gelatinous stock if I follow the Rouxbe lesson fairly closely.

Franklin is right. We too use frozen bones often.

If you are making a white stock... no problem at all. Start with the frozen block.

If you are trying to roast the bones for dark stock, then you are probably better off thawing to the point that you can break them up a bit, then roast away. Keep in mind though that they will take longer to brown (caramelize) because as the ice melts, you will be creating steam in the oven.

Shouldn't be any downside to this. We buy 5lb blocks too.

Joe

If you start with 6 liters of cold water, typically what volume of stock would that produce? Does the volume vary for chicken vs. beef vs. veal?

It's hard to say how much stock you will wind up with due to evaporation during the long cooking process. Make sure to keep the bones/mirepoix covered with water during the whole cooking process and you should wind up with about the same amount. Cheers!

Do you recommend any alterations to the proportions or cook time when making fish or shrimp stock?

There are many similarities when making fish stock. The shells of shellfish can be used as well as the the bones from white-fleshed, non-oily and mild fish (such as sole or flounder). Bones are usually rinsed. They are then sweated with the mirepoix (without browning) so the vegetables can soften and release their flavor during the short cooking time. Add the cold water and once it has been brought to a simmer and skimmed, it can even be turned down to a poaching temperature to gently extract the flavors. The cooking time is much less (about 30 mins to an hour). Hope this helps!

Im confused about the expected reduction of liquid for chicken stock while cooking. The text I'm reading states "simmer the stock undisturbed until the liquids are reduced by about half, 3-4 hours." In practice I saw much less reduction during that time, even though the temp was quite high (caught it boiling at one point, doh!). Maybe I'm overestimating the actual time it simmered properly?

My other question is regarding ideal chicken parts/types for the best flavor. My best available choices (budget-wise) so far seem to be either fresh wings/thighs or frozen bones. Spontaneous thoughts?

The amount of reduction is not an exact measurement. The temperature at which the stock cooks and how much liquid to bones/veg will all play a factor. Really, I would not over think it. As long as you are following the steps in the lesson "Stock Making Fundamentals" you should be good.

As for what type of bones to use, again, refer to the lesson. We use back and necks. You may also find it helpful to read through some of the comments as there are quite a few discussions on this as well. Again, I would not over think it, most any bones will produce good results.

Good luck and happy stock making. Cheers!

I have not located a source for chicken bones in my area, but I can get whole chickens for a reasonable rate. If I'm going to do this right, and follow the lesson, I need to remove the meat from the chicken bones. I'm wondering how many whole chickens I'm going to need to buy to get 6 lbs of chicken bones. Maybe I'll need to buy more if I'm going to use only backs and necks. Any advice on getting bones in this day and age where the meat markets I've talked with don't carry them any more.

I see that Jude O lives in my city Portland Oregon, and has located a distributor that sells chicken bones. Can I find out who that distributor is?

Ken, check with New Seasons. They have necks and backs.

Off to New Seasons...

Also realize that you don't HAVE TO make a 6lb batch of stock. Especially if you are on your own, small batches are just fine. Yes, you may have to make stock more often, but smaller batches are easier to manage. By butchering whole chickens, you'll also have to store and go through a lot of chicken (probably at least 4 chickens) to get 6 lbs of bones. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can cut up one or two chickens...or use the bones from a single chicken that you have roasted and make a stock from that. Stock-making for the home cook does not have to be a big ordeal. It's great to have a big supply of stock in the freezer, but it's not necessary. Just know that you have flexibility here. Cheers!

It certainly is heaven having the voice of experience to help guide me, especially as I am a fledgling beginner. I am lining up to make a 6 lb. batch, but could only order either necks or backs so I ordered necks. They will take a week to arrive at my local store, but that is okay, I'm just learning here. I'll get everything else fresh when I get the necks. Is it okay to use all necks? The butcher seemed to use them for making his stock, but I want to follow RouxBe school recommendations as close as possible.

I would also like to know how the neat packages of stock for freezing are made? I want to label and package stock exactly as it is shown in your videos. This will work for me as I have a small freezer. I truly appreciate your help!:- )

Necks will be fine, but if you can use a combination of chicken carcasses and necks that will be better. There are bigger bones in the rest of the bird and this provide the stock with more gelatin. Don't over think it though. You are aiming to flavor water so you can use that flavored water in other applications.

If you search for "freezing stock" (or anything else you're curious about :-)) in the search bar at the top-right hand side of any page, you'll usually be able to find the answer to your question. There is also a drill-down video attached to this lesson in the last topic called "Tips on How to Freeze and Portion Stock". Make sure not to overlook all of these attached drill-downs in each lesson as they offer lots of tips and helpful information. Cheers!

Thank You.

I've been canning chicken stock for years using cooked bones from whole roasted chicken but not doing it properly--that is, I've been emulsifying the fats etc. at too high heat and getting cloudy, but tasty stock. I usually made the stock, strained it, fridge, defat and then pressure can the next day. Now that I'm doing it your way--can I still can it or will that defeat the value by being heated so high?

I don't have much fridge room. (Note, I do follow proper canning recommendations for time and pressure, etc so I'm not worried about the safety as I haven't killed anyone over the past 15 years of canning :)

Good for you for following the lesson. Once stock is made, it can be canned, no problem. When it is reheated, it is brought to a boil anyway, so there is no harm in raising the temperature to can it. If you read the comments on all of the stock lessons, there are quite a few discussions on canning stock and there are several people that do it. You can also search "canning stock" in the search bar at the top-right of any page and you'll get a link that says "Forum Discussions section" with a bunch of results that you can read. Happy canning all of that clear stock :-) Cheers!

Thank you for the tip. I'm new :) I did do the search but saw the: "Sorry" and didn't read further. Now I know to look at the forums!

Hi does the chicken need to be completely thawed? I bought a 10 pound bag from my butcher and now day four in refrigerator and still frozen. And I'm worried about the vegetables going bad. What should I do? thank you

No the bones do not need to be completely thawed. Unless of course you are planning on roasting them. If however, you are planning on making a white stock, you will be just fine if they are still a bit frozen.

For more information, refer to topic 3 of this lesson, as this is mentioned in that topic as well.

If you need an answer a.s.a.p., you can also often search for things on Rouxbe. For instance if you search for "frozen bones" you will find that you are not the only that has wondered this same thing.

Hope this helps. Cheers!

Cheers!

Thank you still getting the hang of this site.

Maybe I'm over thinking this....but you can't really rinse the bones if they are still frozen? and if you bought them frozen (as I did) you can't really tell how fresh they were. Right??

Yes, you may be over thinking it :-) but once you make it a few times you will see just how easy stock making really is. With that said, don't worry too much, as long as you bought the bones from a reputable place and you stored them properly they will likely be just fine. If they were really bad you could still smell it, even if they were still frozen. Good luck and enjoy the process. Cheers!

So just put them in the stock pot frozen and add the cold water?? thanks

Yes, put the frozen bones in a pot, cover with cold water plus 1-2 inches and slowly bring the liquid to a simmer, skim and continue with the stock-making process as shown in the lesson. Cheers!

Get ready to read a possible tutorial on how not to do it. I could only use necks as that is all the butcher had and since I waited four days I thought "now or never" my vegetables were all looking a little "tired" from sitting four days. I went ahead anyway thinking I can at least work on knife skills if this is a train wreck. The necks were defrosted and seemed very fresh to my surprise. At certain times I wasn't sure if I had a true simmer going or was too low, looked it up and read a simmer is about 200-212 F I got the thermometer and cheated a little. Did that and skimmed like crazy, my stock pot is only about 12 liters or so, I thought maybe had too much water. Did 5 pounds of neck only, then my tired veggies and later boquet garnier. Strained it through cheese cloth and ice bath and it's about the color of a brown gravy. It doesn't smell very pleasant to my nose. Something over powering, maybe leeks? hard to describe? maybe chicken necks smell funky when cooked? any hoot, I have a feeling after I take it out of the refrigerator and skim the fat (if there is any) then bring to a boil, it will have that weird taste. So not letting this get me down though :) any teachers care to trouble shoot for my next go at it? thank you.

When making stock, it is best to use fresh ingredients. Many kitchens tend to use scraps and trimmings for their stock but it is important to realize that you will get out what you put in. If your vegetables were really old, they can contribute a stale or bitter taste to the stock. Aside from that, it sounds like you followed the stock making steps properly. I don't know how much mirepoix you used (and how big/small it was cut) but next time you may want to follow the 3:1 ratio of bones to mirepoix as suggested in the lesson.

Once you skim the fat from the surface, bring a cup or so to a boil. Season it with a bit of salt and taste. If you need to concentrate the flavors, you can reduce the stock by simmering it. The point of making stock is to flavor water so the liquid can be used in other dishes. Stock can be so tasty once made, we often drink it like a tea! You can also try making a smaller batch next time with the carcass of 1 chicken. This will give you more practice and also a smaller batch isn't as big of an ordeal. Cheers!

Eric, 212 is boiling. Simmering is in the 195-205 degree range. While not far off, if you actually hit 212 you would be emulsifying your fat (see the lesson on Submersion Cooking Methods). Also, sometimes, after the initial blanching of frozen bones, you will end up with--now this is a highly technical term--scum on the bottom of the pot. If so, it is best to dump the water at this point and start with a clean pot. I use five pounds of bones in an eight quart stock pot. It sounds like, if anything, your stock should be weak. Did you double check the ratio of vegetables and bouquet garni you were adding? Is there any chance that there was some offal mixed in with the bones? Dissolved liver and kidneys might account for the smell and color. Just a thought.

Well the color actually looks like the lesson. Yes next time keep in the 195-205 range thanks. Michael I used all necks. Also noticed tiny pieces of meat floating to the top and I skimmed those as well. Was kind of a fight to keep the necks down and fully submerged as they wanted to float. As far as the ratio, I simply don't understand your concept 3 parts to one. Am I supposed to stack all the vegetable next to the necks and make sure they are three times more in volume? thanks for your patience. This website is my first venture beyond "cooking" in a microwave.

Yes, just eyeball it. If you use 3 pounds of bones, use about 1 pound of mirepoix. This is shown in Topic 5. This can be adjusted to suit your tastes (more mirepoix or more bones) but it is just a place to start. This gives a good balance of flavor and gelatin. If the bones were floating, you may have used a bit too much water. The ingredients should just be covered plus about 1-2 inches of water. Congratulations on making stock. It is the first step towards better cooking and it will definitely become easier where you won't even think about it. Cheers!

Eric, not my concept, but it doesn't have to be precise. Just eyeball it. I usually use twice as many onions/leeks as I use carrots and celery.

Think of a four-square grid: three squares are bones, and one is mirepoix. The mirepoix square is further broken up into four squares. Two squares are onions, one is carrots, and one is celery. If you're using five pounds of chicken, use about a pound of onion and a half pound of celery and half a pound of carrots. Of course, you can easily go down since this is rounded up. Like I said, I usually eyeball it and use two small mixing bowls to "size up" my mirepoix.

Heck . . . who knows, if this is the first time you've smelled "real" stock, you may be on the money. Have you tasted it? :)

Overwhelming taste of celery. I think next time I need to follow your advice.
I used way too much celery, It tastes like celery swamp water. Thanks.

So let me see if I understand this. If I have nine pounds of stock bones then I generally want three pounds total of mirepoix?

You got it; but, again, don't over think it. It's just a rough guideline. You are flavoring water so more bones = more chicken flavor (and more gelatin)...more mirepoix = more vegetable flavor (less gelatin). Cheers!

Think i'm still in that "follow the recipe" mode. I see now, there is a lot of flexibility in how stock can come out. For instance, add too much vegetable (like I did) get a vegetable tasting stock. I get it now, thank you.

I usually buy chicken breast bones from local supplier to make white stock and the result is great, but when I started to use chicken leg bones last week, the stock turned out to be a very dark gray color and dirty- which has a lot of fat floating in it. Did I do anything wrong? Both kinds of bones are frozen when I get them, and they look quite clean and not have much blood on them.

I defrost the leg bones , then I think I found the problem: lots of them are broken apart, so the marrow leaks out. Is there any way to solve this? or I just have to use the breast bones again?

The marrow and fat should come to the surface. It is a matter of just simmering - not boiling - the stock and skimming often to remove the impurities. Cheers!

Do you trim fat off the chicken stock before starting?

It is not necessary to trim the fat from bones prior to making stock. The fat will ultimately float to the surface. What is more important is to not boil the stock; otherwise the impurities and fat will emulsify with the liquid and make the stock cloudy and greasy. Cheers!

What do you think of how some people just cut an onion in half and drop it in? or peel a carrot and drop it in? some say that if you leave the vegetables in halfs or whole, you get the same flavor and have less clean up. Also you say to add water when the level drops below the bones, but if they are floating there is no real way to tell. (at least not for me) these are probably redundant questions, but my first two attempts went right down the drain, so I want to try and make my next attempt successful. Thanks always for your help.

Eric, there is a reason the vegetables are peeled and diced. While larger/whole vegetables can be used, I would first suggest the following before you try yet another method.

First re-watch the lesson and also read through the discussion tab. Then make another batch. This time, maybe half a batch and really focus on the process. Take your time and don't get frustrated or discouraged. I will say this all the way to my grave, "the more you practice something, the easier it will become". And while I am at it I will say "one cannot always just make something once or twice and expect it to be perfect". Sometimes the most rewarding things are those that were a bit of a challenge to achieve. Cheers!

Thanks for the pat on the back, I'm not giving up after even 10 batches if necessary. Please if you would, address my questions: 1. What is the reason as you state, why vegetables should be cut up? 2. As asked above, if the bones are floating, I can't really tell if I need more water or not. The reason I ask is I don't want to keep adding water and dilute it down to having minimal flavor. Thanks

The mirepoix needs to be cut up into about 1 inch pieces so their flavors can be more easily extracted during the simmering process. Larger pieces will take longer amounts of time to fully extract their flavors. If you cut the mirepoix too small, it could disintegrate during the cooking process and cloud your stock, so there is a balance depending on the type of stock being made (veal stocks that use much larger bones can withstand having the vegetables a bit larger because the cooking time is substantially longer).

If the bones start to float as you are adding the water to the stock pot, simply stop adding water. The bones need to be JUST covered (if you add an inch or so more of water, it won't hurt). Providing that you don't boil your stock, it is unlikely that you will need to top up with any water. Once the mirepoix is added, you may have to add a touch of water but again, it is just a little bit more to ensure the ingredients are covered so their flavors can be extracted.

I'm going to really exaggerate it here...if your pot is full of bones and mirepoix but water rises only half way up, most of the ingredients in the pot will not be in the liquid and therefore, their flavors cannot be extracted. Likewise, if you have one chicken bone and a small piece of carrot in a pot that is full of water, there will be no flavor in the final stock. Cheers!

OK I get that now. Can chicken legs be used? probably yes right? but do they release good flavor? Thank you.

I am going to suggest that you first focus on making a good stock from start to finish. Yes, chicken legs and meat can be used (these are called broths) but one step at a time. The process is similar but has a few extra steps. Once you are comfortable making stock (and have made quite a few of them), then move on to the other lessons in the school, but please just focus on one task at a time and learn how to perfect it. Cheers!

So stick to backs and necks?

Please review Topic 3. Backs and necks are ideal, however, any type of chicken bones can be used. Cheers!

If I only use some of the vegetables and herbs that I bought, and do not plan on making stock for say another couple weeks or so, can the unused be frozen and defrosted later for use? Thanks Kimberley.

Yes you can. No need to defrost when you want to make your next stock. Refer to the drill-down that is attached to Topic 5. Cheers!

Ah.....never looked at those drill-downs. So to be clear, any and all vegetables an even all boquet Garni herbs can be frozen to use at another date? how long do you think they can be frozen until?

I am a student here, but regarding freezing, I think the recommended is 3 months. After that, other 'tastes' from the environment in the freezer can influence the fresh taste that can be preserved for up to 3 months in the freezer. You might notice that in other delicate things kept in the freezer, like the flavor of ice cream loses it's original 'brightness' or 'freshness' after a prolonged period of being frozen. I don't think anything holds it's original good flavor after 3 months in a freezer, at least in my opinion.

I think I read somewhere today 3 months as well. Best wishes to you.

Hi I've tried looking for answers elsewhere because I know you instructors are so busy but not turned up anything of note so here goes. I want to be sure on a couple things: 1. The stock I get from the butcher is frozen solid, can I actually take them out of the packaging and let them defrost in the refrigerator uncovered (I know to make sure all dripping is caught) but is that a safety risk for them to to sit in the open in refrigerator? I ask because last time it took way too long to defrost inside the packaging. 2. If I make a clear stock (yes I know they don't have to defrost) can I re-use the left over stock
bones for a stove roasted dark stock? thanks

As long as the bones are in a container and do not touch any other foods, it is fine. You can still cover the container with plastic wrap to ensure that they do not come into contact with anything while they thaw.

You can use the bones a second time around for making another stock; however keep in mind that it will be substantially weaker in flavor and gelatin. This is called "remouillage". If you search for this in the search bar (top-right of any page), you will find other forum discussions on the subject. Cheers!

Hi I made another batch today with a lot less mirepoix (as suggested by Joy of Cooking) I liked it better, but every time I make a light chicken stock, I can barely taste any chicken flavor. So next time what should I do? less water? more chicken? longer simmer? I don't want to reduce mirepoix amount any further as it was just right. Thanks

Not sure what to tell you that we may have not covered in the past comments Eric. Perhaps you just need to keep trying and play around with the proportions of bones, mirepoix and water until you come up with something that suits your needs/taste buds. Cheers!

I looked up and down here first before posting this very specific question.

Eric, I am merely saying that if you do not like the recipe we follow and/or you don't like the taste or strength of the recipe we use, which is a very common/standard recipe, used in many culinary schools (the ratio of bones/mirepoix/water) then you will need to experiment to see what works for you.

If you are sure you have done everything right and you have made the stock quite a few times and each time you do not like the taste of it, then I don't know what else to tell you besides, you will need to experiment with other recipes and ratios.

So when you ask "So next time what should I do? less water? more chicken? longer simmer?" My answer is yes, try and or all of that to see if it changes the outcome for you, to something that you are happier with.

Keeping in mind that stock is meant to taste like a nice light but still distinct taste of chicken. It is not meant to taste like the best chicken soup you have ever had. It is meant to enhance and flavor other dishes. Cheers!

I also ordered some pre made stock from More Than Gourmet to see what the benchmark is. Maybe I'm so used to chicken broth that I'm expecting that? The difficult thing is that I don't know what it is supposed to taste like, that must be the dividing line of attending a school vs online. Thanks for your help and patience, I have a feeling I've tested it :)

I am just a beginning student here, but to add a comment: I don't think there are any benchmarks in cooking because it is such a highly individualized craft. Having a 'wide open' playing field is one of the exciting parts about cooking, as I see it anyway. Regarding stock and flavor, I would say follow the lessons as they are given. For a school, that is the benchmark. Then, if your taste says it needs to be different, make adjustments. The important thing is to follow the lessons and make the grade. This is the purpose of any school.

On the subject of more flavor, I would say that the first choice, if the lesson has been followed exactly, is to increase the flavor by the school recommended avenue of 'reduction.' Most of the lessons make sure to include the option of continuing to simmer and stir a finished stock to reduce it by half or even more - just to concentrate the flavor. Mmm... I get swooned by just thinking about the concentrated flavor this would bring out.

Just my opinion.

I love the Rouxbe cooking school, but Eric has hit upon the one drawback I find with learning cooking online. Not being a true "foodie" with lots of experience eating great food at fine restaurants, I'm not sure what things should taste like either. So I'm not sure if my stock is right or not. When I make a hollandaise or other sauce I'm not really sure how to season it properly; eg have I added enough salt and acidity or too much? Along that vein at least I have learned how to make a hollandaise that doesn't break, so I feel I've made big strides compared to where I was when I started. And so on with the other techniques I've been learning.

I've thought about what Rouxbe could do from time to time because this is a nagging concern to me, and I've never really come up with a good suggestion to make. I doubt they want to invite online members to drop by the school and cook something so they can taste it and comment. Mailing in food samples is not going to fly. Having touring Rouxbe "roadshows" where they come to a town near you doesn't seem plausible either.

Both of you (Kens) make great observations / comments. It is true that adjusting for taste is not an easy thing to master. It is certainly a lot easier to have a chef standing beside you saying that "it needs a bit more salt, or acidity, etc", but then again, cooking schools charge $8K to $50K for this level of teaching.

However, the great thing about cooking is that as you are learning, you need to practice. And it's when practicing, that you are truly learning. What I mean by this is once you learn the skills and techniques behind cooking and begin to apply your new knowledge, you will begin to learn more and more about how to adjust seasoning to "your" taste. I am assuming that you enjoy food and cooking enough to have purchased a tuition plan to Rouxbe so just keep practicing and making observations and then adapt based on these observations. And have your friends and family feel comfortable enough to assist you with their feedback.

Lastly, I should add that what 'tastes' good to me, may be too salty or sweet for you, for example, so focus on what's right for you. It could be the very best recipe in the world from the very best chef in the world, but if it doesn't taste good to you, then it really doesn't matter. You're the ultimate critic.

Hope this helps.
Joe

Thanks Joe, I certainly needed to hear your words. I have never commented on 'taste' because, well, that seems like a subjective thing to me and words will never convey 'taste.' All I know is, when I have gathered all of the fresh ingredients together, just smelling their aroma as they lay across the counter, or even as I bring them home in the shopping bag, makes me feel good. Yes, I don't know what I am doing, but I do have a plan, to follow the recipe and stay focused on the video instruction and take copious notes so I can display them on a special rack I have made to go over my cooking area. All of this brings me as close to a real classroom as you can get, because, ultimately, you must do it on your own.

:- )

In regards to above comments I think maybe you have to drop the money and taste great hollandaise at a great restaurant. Even bernaise sauce, I've had it so many times I would know if mine was good or not. But stock? I think I'll ask at a restaurant for a cup of stock :) see what they say. Well I've tried the More Than Gourmet light and dark stock. The light stock was quite salty with strong over tones of celery but it had a luscious texture that I don't know if I will ever accomplish. The dark chicken stock was absolutely fabulous. I actually drank some of it about 1/2 cup amazing texture and color. Believe me, if there is a benchmark it's MTG stock. I've now made about 12 batches of light and dark stock with so so blah results always tastes "watery." After tasting the stuff I bought, I'm moving on to new areas of interest here. While there may be some serious limitations to online only learning, I'm not attending an in person cooking school so this is doing me fine. Quite a value for all there is to learn. Thank you staff for all the help.

If you want to freeze stock and be able to portion it later, freeze it in ice cube makers / bags. That way you have tiny portions and can just get as many as you need.

In your video your bags seem to be sealed. I'm guessing you can only do that with pro equipment? Most "bag sealers" I've seen are not able to handle liquids.

We used a FoodSaver machine for vacuum sealing. In this tip & technique video called Tips on How to Freeze and Portion Stock (part of Topic 8 of this lesson) we also show freezing stock in regular bags and/or containers as well. Cheers!

I had trouble finding bones in my area, so I bought bone-in chicken parts and am freezing the bone after I use the meat. My butchering skills are honestly quite poor, and my bones have a lot of meat left on them. Should I attempt to get the excess meat off, or is it okay for stock making as is? Thank you so much for all your assistance!

If there is a lot of meat on the bones and it is worth your while to take it off once it has just cooked through (refer to the broth lesson for instructions on how to do this), then you can do so, if desired; but, if the meat doesn't amount too much, it can be left on during the stock making process - no problem. And don't worry, with practice your knife skills will get better and better. Cheers!