I made stock for the first time and used this recipe--it turned out great! It was easy to do, too. Thank you. Your recipe calls for barely simmering the stock for 6 hrs. Other recipes I've seen say simmer only 1 hr. Is the amount of flavor proportionately greater in the longer-simmered stock?

Short answer: There IS a point where you will not extract any more flavor from bones and/or vegetables. A slow simmer results in a slower extraction process and is used to produce a very clear stock. We suggest 4 to 6 hours at a very slow simmer for best results. Longer Answer: Let me first start off by talking about what a stock is - it is flavored water. That's it. Making a stock is like making tea where you are simply infusing flavor into water to use as a base for a: e.g. sauce, soup, braised dish, etc. With that out of the way, there are no absolutes with stocks. You simmer to extract flavor and if you like the flavor you have reached after 1 or 2 hours, then so be it. It will still produce an end-dish that will be better than if you simply added plain water. And unlike tea, you can even cook a stock longer without causing the stock to degrade in flavor. You won't be extracting any more flavor after a certain point, but rather you will start concentrating the flavors through reduction. So remember - no absolutes. If you want to add tomatoes and more thyme to adjust the base flavor, then go ahead. This is where stock making gets fun and begins to take on your own personal culinary character.

I made this stock yesterday. Instead of my usual short cut methods, I followed the recipe. this is some of the best stock I've ever made. I did simmer for 6 hours. It was very gellatenous when cooled. I can't wait to use this stock. I also put the stock in ziplock bags, laying flat in the freezer. I had 8 bags which hardly took any room...awesome!

Fantastic stock. I've used it in meat dumplings and almost anywhere "water" is needed in a recipe. I too have a gelatinous mass in my fridge which I enjoy scooping out and enriching my, now superior, dishes. Thanks guys! 100%

I may need to get a larger one but it is difficult for me to tell from the video ... Thank you! Matthew

Anywhere from a 10 quart to 16 quart is good for the home cook. It all depends on how much you want to make and how much you can store. There is more covered in the How to Make Stock Fundamentals Lesson and in this previous forum discussion. Happy Cooking! Hope this helps.

Really I wanted to make this recipe verbatim. I saw that the stock pot that I have is in fact a 7 quart which I suppose it is why it looks small - especially if it were to accommodate all the ingredients in this recipe. So, for this Dark Chicken Stock recipe I take it that a 10 quart would be the minimum with a 12 quart getting the nod? I was not able to make my way to the link for a recommended pot that was listed in the previous forum as the "page could not be found" but I did find a 12 quart All Clad stainless stock pot but it sells in the high $300 range ... :)

Hi Matthew. I'd go for a 12 minimum to 16 quart (the bigger the better) as you are going to love making stock - not to mention the great recipes that will be within your reach once you have great stock on hand. Note that going from a 12 to 16 will not be that different in price. However, 12 is big enough for this recipe. As for where to buy them, call you local restaurant supply store and I'm sure you can pick one up for around $100 to $150. Just make sure it's stainless steel. In Vancouver, we go to this place: http://www.russellfood.ca/ (interesting people think that it's only for restaurants and hotels but the public are served as well if you know). Good luck.

I'll go and search today. As a matter of interest, could one take this recipe, divide the quantities by two - and cook in two smaller (7 qt) stock pots? Would that have any effect on cooking time or consistency of the resulting stock? Thank you again! Matthew.

This would totally work - the cooking time would only be affected by how long it would take the stock to come to a simmer (as there would be less water). Basically stocks are quite flexible, don't worry too much just get in there and you will see how easy and wonderful they are. I just made one the other day (in a 6 qt pot) and I had to leave it on low for about 6 hrs and the end result was a delicious and rich stock. What I mean is that I rarely worry about time, I work stocks around my schedule so that I make them often. Hope this helps!

of an 18 quart Vollrath Stainless Steel Stock Pot! Acquired from a local restaurant supply store ($109 for the pot, $26 for the lid) - thank you Joe G for the suggestion! Chicken bones are harder to come by than I thought but have requested a local supermarket to set some aside as the day goes on - hopefully will pick them up tomorrow. Let the stocks begin!

Following the recipe, I seem to have ended up with two to three times the vegetables - as compared with the video. Consequently I think I was steaming the mirepoix in the first step as opposed to caramelizing them. I then split them into two pans. I did not use the product from deglazing the pan which held the chicken bones as it was beyond caramelized 0 it had burned and the taste was so acrid that I did not want to incorporate this into the stock. At the end of the day we had 14 cups of what I would call a very nice and deep vegetable stock - however the chicken was hard to detect. Nevertheless,I look forward to using this stock in future recipies.

Hi Matthew... First of all, congratulations for making one of the most important purchases for your culinary training (next to the knife) - a stock pot. Everyone take note :-) Secondly, I congratulate you on adapting (splitting up the mirepoix because you noticed that it was steaming). Paying attention and asking questions is the first step to obtaining the results you desire. You did the right thing. Thirdly, I would like to suggest that you review the lesson on Stock Making Fundamentals. In particular, topic number 5. When making stocks there are no hard and fast rules regarding the ratio of bones to vegetables. We suggest a ratio of 3 parts bones to 1 part mirepoix but this is a general guide only. For the mirepoix, half onions and half celery, carrots and leaks. So next time, forget the recipe altogether and eyeball it. If in the end you'd like a bit more chicken flavor, add more bones. Play with it. Lastly, caramelizing the bones is important. Not over caramelizing is also important (e.g. burning). So you did the right thing to trust your judgment. The subsequent lesson in the Stock Section on How to Make Dark Stock will provide some great technique for you. Great work. Try another small batch after you review these lessons and then let's make something with it. If you need suggestions, click on the 'Contact Us' link on the bottom of the page and we'll suggest a few great starter recipes.

This is the key to setting yourself up for some great results in the kitchen. The first recipe I tried from Rouxbe was the Chicken Marsala and I used store bought stock. The second recipe I tried was this one for the dark stock. I reattempted the Chicken Marsala and was blown away at the difference in quality. Since that time I've pretty much always had some home made dark stock on hand in the freezer. My only gripe is that my oven is too small to adequately roast everything all at once so I find myself doing the vegetables and bones separately, and even then, sometimes the bones in batches. Once it all gets thrown into the pot though, it's smooth sailing and I can pretty much let it do it's thing once it's come to a gentle simmer. I can't stress how awesome having your own dark stock on hand is. Ridiculously good pan sauces, braising liquids, etc., are all so easily attainable now.

I made stock yesterday, which looks delicious. However, I woke up this morning and there is no thick layer of fat at the top (I put the pot in the refrigerater). Does this indicate that most of the fat emulsified? -I hope it all wasnt for naught...

There is not always a big layer of fat on top. Perhaps the bones you used wasn't very fatty. Don't worry Rosi, if it tastes good then you are fine. Curious...did the stock thicken (get more gelatinous) in the refrigerator?

The stock did not get more gelatinous. Could my refrigerator not be cold enough?

Thanks! I'm just going to stick to "having done a great job skimming"!

As far as the temperature of your refrigerator...I suggest using a fridge thermometer. I have one that I keep in the fridge at all times. This way I always know that my refrigerator is at the correct temperature. I also have an oven-proof thermometer for my oven, as appliances are most often slightly out when it comes to temperatures. Hope this helps!

I made chicken short stock yesterday. I had to use chicken legs as I have no easy access to chicken bones. I followed the recipe and used good quality canned chicken stock rather than water. The recipe calls for adding 2 liters of chicken quarts. The beginning of the recipe has the statement Serves 5L. Is this recipe supposed to make 5L? Am I reading the recipe wrong? In other words, adding 2 L should not yield 5L Jorge

What other herbs could be substituted for the thyme? Would rosemary work?

I would not substitute with rosemary as it would be too overpowering. I would maybe just leave it out or use a bit of dried thyme. You could also try using a herb blend that contains a bit of thyme such as, herbes de Provence. Just don't over do it, as you don't want to overpower the flavor of the chicken.

Are you supposed to use the whole leek, or just the white and light green parts?

You can use the whole leek if you like. I often save the white and light green part for cooking and store the dark green tops in the freezer, to be used later when I am making stocks.

Why isn't there salt in this stock? I thought the point of the lesson on "seasoning with salt" was that you should pretty much season everything as you go, so wouldn't that include stock?

Salt is optional in stock, as stock is meant to more neutral in flavor. This allows you to have more control when you make dishes later. If stocks are made with no (or very little salt) it is much easier to control the amount of saltiness in a dish. Does this make sense? We often add a touch of salt into our stocks but again this is optional. For more information on this, watch the cooking school lesson on How to Make Stock Fundamentals, in particular topic 5 (after about the 45 second mark).

I followed the instructions on caramelizing the bones and vegetables, and then placed all the ingredients (and hot water) in my slow cooker instead of a stock pot and let simmer for 5-6 hours on low. The stock was extremely flavourful and gelatinous! Thanks for this wonderful recipe! I will not make chicken stock any other way except the rouxbe way from now on! :)

Thanks so much for the explanation! No wonder I saw so much residue in the stock! But the taste was good though. :) I used slow cooker to make the stock cos I don't own a stock pot and I could just walk away and not have to keep an eye on the stove constantly. However, I will certainly try the stove top method one of these days! :) Thanks again!

I get my chickens from a local farm. They come with feet attached. I have cut them up and saved all the extra bits for stock. I have wingtips, backs, necks, etc. My question is should I use the feet for the stock as well? Why or why not? -Thanks

Good question. Indeed, you can use chicken feet in a stock. Here is another forum thread that talks a bit more about this same subject. Cheers!

Knowing roasting and pan drippings are a crucial part of the process, is there a way to make stock from rotisserie chicken? We have a rotisserie shop we like to buy our chicken from but we would like to make use of the rest of the chicken. Thanks!

Indeed, you can use leftover chicken bones. You can either use them as is or you can roast them first. Then carry on with the same stock making process. Cheers!

So far I've only made regular chicken stock, and a failed attempt at demi glace which I now call a veal/brown stock, Both were ok, but this ROCKS!!!! Maybe I'm just getting better at following directions?! I will never again bother with just a straight boring bland clear chicken stock. Or maybe I will once I finish all the lessons and understand why one would pick that over this. The aroma from the roasted chicken feet and left over roasted carcasses is AMAZING. I can actually taste this "Flavored Water" (thanks a million for making that clear to me, Joe G.!) I wasn't sure if it was going to work adding frozen left-over roasted chicken carcasses that I've been saving along with the raw frozen chicken feet as I couldn't find any chicken necks, backs etc. unbelievable! So I ended up re-roasting the left-over roasted chicken carcasses and roasted the raw chicken feet. Along with the mirepoix this took all day just to roast!!! I do have one question... I didn't follow the directions exactly as far as roasting the mirepoix as far as using tin foil. I just oiled up my half-sheet and roasted on that. When the roasting process of the mirepoix was finished, it seems to me I missed an opportunity for more of that grand suc flavor by not deglazing the pan the mirepois was roasting in. I only dumped the mirepoix into the pot without deglazing it because part of the pan had black burned bits and frankly I was tired of the marathon roasting day I had been struggling with. I didn't know I could re-roast a previously roasted chicken carcass and it took about the same amount of time the raw chicken feet took. I had far more sucs with the previously roasted chicken carcasses and much more flavor and aroma. Hummmm.... this is fun! Could you please comment on why you would skip the tin foil and just roast the mirepoix, then deglaze that as well? I really think I should have deglazed the mirepoix and added it to the mix. I'm thinking there's not much coagulation that's going to go on in a previously roasted chicken carcass, but if you add half raw chicken feet you may end up with the same viscosity or "congeniality" as you wanted. Please comment. thanks!

Ok, this may be over the top, but I usually make about 16 to 20 quarts worth of chicken bone/water in my stock pot. I'm not very happy to make such a small amount given the amount of cost of energy it takes to do this all day marathon. that's not your fault, it's mine for not finding enough chicken bones to fill a 20 qt pot. In any event since this is the smallest batch I've ever made...as I skim the surface for grease and what-not, I know I'm taking valuable liquid stock out in the process. I was thinking of taking that grease-filled bowl of the skimming and placing it in the frig to let the grease rise to the top so I can skim it off, then take the small amount of left over stock and add it back to the pot instead of water as it evaporates. Usually I have a much larger batch and wouldn't care about losing that little bit of flavorful stock and throw it in the trash. So, I would like to hear your comments on this. Thank Rouxbe, you are going to make a world-class-home-cook out of me yet!

This stock came out perfect and tastes so wonderful I could just sit here and drink it all up!! p.s. the pre-roasted frozen--re-roasted chicken carcasses along with the roasted raw feet came out perfect. Perfect texture and tastes amazing. Thanks Rouxbe, you're going to make a gourmet cook out of me yet!

Is it my imagination or is there less scum rising to the surface on dark chicken stock as opposed to white chicken stock? Made white yesterday, today making roasted dark. There looks like less scum in this batch than the white. Thanks!

what is wrong with using an excellent quality aluminum stock pot? i think it was mentioned here that stainless steel should be used.

Wish I could answer this for you and I'm sure someone with expertise will be along shortly to give you a more qualified answer. Only thing I can think of is aluminum is not exactly healthy and emits a subtle taste to your food. Cheap stainless steel is everywhere and tasteless and a lot more healthy for your brain. The only thing I can think of as far as heat distribution, aluminum is excellent, but still wouldn't want my food to have physical contact with it. It's great in frying pans when used as a heat conductor/distributor, but again, wouldn't want it in direct contact with my food. Just my two cents worth.

i am currently attempting my first hand at making chicken stock. i have decided to try making dark stock. i am not certain how it's gonna turn out but i am crossing my fingers. wish me luck!!!

I do my dark chicken stock by putting the mirepoix in with the bones to carmelize. Would this make a differece? Also sometimes use turkey necks, backs, added to chicken bones. Will this be okay?

I've made the dark and light chicken stocks from this site with great success before. This week I was all out of stock in my freezer, but only had a couple of chicken bones I'd saved. My small-town grocer usually sells chicken backs (with all the fat and skin attached... but at least I can get them!), but this week they only had turkey necks. I decided to buy them and try it out. Is there anything else I should change about this recipe as I will be using turkey necks instead of chicken bones?

The same ingredients/mirepoix that are used to make chicken stock can be used to make turkey stock. Then again, you can also vary the mirepoix depending on the flavor profile you want to give the stock, if any. Also, I personally love the aroma and taste of poultry seasoning, so I might had a pinch or two of that if I had it, but it's not necessary. Cheers!

I am new to Rouxbe and am making my first batch of dark stock today. I am using 2 pots, since I don't have a stock pot. I live in Houston, too, and was wondering if you could tell me where you found yours. I am not familiar with any restaurant supply stores in our area, and hope you can help me. Thanks in advance, Nancy

Hey Nancy! I thought I had responded to your post earlier in the week - but see that it did not make it - so here is another attempt Link to Ace Mart store locator in Houston is here http://www.acemart.com/store-locator.ep Link to product is here http://www.acemart.com/prod7788.html Good luck! Please let me know if you need anything further. Matthew

Can you buy chicken bones ready for stock? Or do you have to collect them yourself? Also if it is not possible to buy them, what is the best route to saving enough? Roast a few chickens and save the bones?

Most butchers and many grocery stores sell chicken bones (meaning they are ready for stock). Cheers!

Since this is my first time making dark chicken stock, I am unsure what the flavor profile is supposed to be like. I noticed that my dark chicken stock has a sweet note to it (probably due to the oven-browned veggies and tomato paste?); is this normal? Also, I was disappointed to find that there was a bit of bitter finish, as I'm quite sure it means I did something wrong, but I cannot figure out what it was. I did my best to discard any burnt bits of veggies and I'm pretty sure none of the chicken bone sucs were burnt, but I could have missed something. I used Pino Gris to deglaze the roasting pan--could wine impart a somewhat bitter flavor? What are your thoughts on this? Thanks your wisdom!

Thanks for your response, Kimberley. So here are my findings for the practice lessons for the dark stock: 1) Reducing the stock in half and drinking slightly salted in a mug--really bitter; 2) Reducing by 75% and using as a sauce for chicken--not bad, but can still taste off bitter/sweet flavor (love the texture though, but unrelated); 3) Used in the Roast Pork Tenderloin w/ Apple Sage Jus--off flavor very faint, but still slightly detectable, so I slow cooked the apple-based sauce for an extended period to extract more of the apple flavor, and it worked. Sauce was fantastic. I guess what it comes down to is that I have to set aside a full day to redo this lesson :)

First of all Yaara, exceptional job for your own self diagnostics. This is a quality of a great cook - being able to taste and adjust. I love that you slowed cooked the apple sauce to concentrate the sugars to offset the bitter notes. This is what cooking is all about (small adjustments until you get the desired flavor). So very nice work. As I type this, I'm actually drinking a mug of dark chicken stock. I usually have one cup a day (most days anyways). Occasionally even mine has a slight bitter note, but 9 times out of 10, it's because I over roasted something (bones or leeks usually). Next time, try roasting a bit less and compare the results. One other thing to try to better understand how powerful over-roasted (or over-browned ingredients) can affect the flavor of a dish or recipe is to try the first exercise in the sweating lesson (garlic clove and water). It's really amazing and really quick to try. http://rouxbe.com/cooking-school/lessons/200-how-to-sweat-ingredients/practice Keep up the great work. Cheers, joe

Thanks for the positive feedback, Joe. The garlic experiment was enlightening. I'll definitely try to roast the bones a little less next time and see how the flavor of the dark stock is affected.

After reading a reference to pressure cooker chicken stock in Michael Ruhlman's blog I decided to give it a try and the results were remarkable. I used a 10qt pressure cooker and based the approach on the following article (http://www.saveur.com/article/Recipes/From-the-Test-Kitchen-Perfect-Pressure-Cooker-Chicken-Stock) and it was almost as good as the traditional method from Rouxbe that I've been following for the past year. The yield was about 5 quarts. The best part was that I was able to complete the stock start to finish in less than two hours (on a weeknight) versus the 5-6 hour weekend endeavor. The stock was dark and gelatinous but lacked a bit of the roasted flavor, which was probably due to the fact that I just sauteed the carcass of a roasted chicken and the vegetables rather than roasting them in the oven. Next time I won't skip the roasting step and hopefully the results will be even better. I will still do the large volume approach from the Rouxbe recipe in my 24qt stockpot, but applying the same principles with a pressure cooker is a great alternative for a weeknight stock or when you can't spend 5-6 hours.

Is there any disadvantages of frying the chicken over roasting ( other than the mess)? Just thinking it will save time ( I'm sure one of the stock lessons said to fry so I assume no problems) ?

Made this today - was v good tho didn't quite caremelise the bones enough so wasn't as dark as it should be. Still good. I fried the bones but they didn't crisp up like in the video. Will try oven them next time ( I think it would take two hours in my oven and didn't have the time today).

You can definitely fry the bones in a pan (as per the Short Stock Lesson). It sounds like perhaps you just didn't let them fry as long as needed. Of course as you mentioned the oven method is much less messy. Even though your stock may not have quite as much color it will still be delicious and add a lot of flavor to the food you are adding it to. Nice work!

I am making dark chicken stock. Do you see a problem caramelizing bones and mirepoix and de-glazing on day 1. into the fridge overnight, then finishing stock on day 2?

I thought it turned out great. Please let me know what percentage of chicken backs versus necks. Burtcher gave me twice as many necks. Should they be rinsed prior to roasting ?

I wouldn't over think the ratio of back to necks. If it turned out great then that's what matters. As for rinsing before roasting this is not a really a good idea as the moisture will cause the bones to steam rather than roast (as per the lesson on How to Make Dark Stocks. Cheers!

What size stock pot would you recommend buying? And is there a particular brand you would recommend? I am buying a few things and want to make sure I get the right (meaning most useful) size(s). Thanks!

The size of stock pot really depends on how much stock you are going to make at once. For the home cook, anywhere between a 10 to 16 qt should be good. With that said, lately I have been making smaller batches and it has been quite nice as the smaller amount is just easier to deal with all around. The only draw back, of course, is that we have to make it more often. Whichever pot you decide to buy, just be sure it is has a thick enough bottom so ingredients don't burn if you decide to caramelize the mirepoix etc. As far as brands, there are so many. Here is a link to some that we sell through our store from Cuisinart. You may also want to check out your local restaurant supply store. If you search for Size of Stock Pot in the search field you will also find quite a few other discussions on this subject that you may find helpful. Good luck and happy stock making. Cheers!

I made dark chicken stock last weekend. It was the second time I have made. The first one turned out great but this time the liquid did not sodify after keeping in the fridge overnight. There was not any fat cap either. The things I did differrent from the previous were cutting the bone down to 4 pounds and trimmed out almost all the fat from the bones. I have a small stock pot and 6 pounds of bone is quite overcrowded. I cooked it over 6 hours. The stock looked great shiny brown and smell good. Is there anything wrong that it did not solidify in fridge?

Sounds like perhaps your ratio of bones to water might have been low. The bones are what will provide your stock with the gelatin, which is what will solidify once it has been refrigerated. Don't be too concerned about your stock not being overly gelatinous this time. Next time you may just want to use a higher ratio of bones to water. For more information on the subject you may want to do a search for "gelatinous stock" or search the discussion tab under the lesson called "Stock Making Fundamentals" as there is quite a bit of discussion on this popular subject. Cheers!

Thanks Dawn; Will it help if I reduce the volume by simmering. Does only water evaporate during simmering or other aromatic hydrocarbon compounds are gone too?

Yes you can reduce the stock (here is a Drill-down on "Reducing Stock"). This may help to give it more of a gelatinous quality. And yes, some of the liquid will evaporate and the flavors will intensify as the stock reduces. Cheers!

Sorry for the noob question :)

"a head of garlic" is the whole garlic with all of the cloves and "a clove of garlic" is just a single clove. Cheers!

I don't see any necks on your video. I'm using equal parts in weight of neck and back is that ok? thanks

Also I'm about 2 1/2 hours into simmering, I'm afraid if I add water I will dilute it even though the water level is dropping below the bones and vegetables. I don't understand why I should add water. Thoughts?

Hi second attempt here almost finished. Again it is a orange/dark rust type color rather than that beautiful brown color shown on the video. Any ideas what I'm not doing right? why it isn't darker? see above questions as well please. Thanks Rouxbe.

So reducing it is the only way to get it to that dark, dark brown/black color? this morning I checked after refrigerating all night and it is very thick and solid "wobbly" gelatin like and not at all liquid with a small fat cap. Is that normal?

Hi Kim I understand what you are saying. I have looked but not always finding answers relating exactly to what I need to know, or I found answers but still didn't understand, It isn't easy being a complete beginner. In regards to my question, now hear me out please, the first time I made dark chicken stock it was too runny and thin after refrigerating, now this batch after refrigerating is pure gelatin. So the question I have that I don't see above is: how gelatinous is average? so I know I'm doing it right? I hear your site has a comprehensive faq in the works too that should be helpful.

Yesterday, I thought I would save some time by caramelizing some chicken backs and necks in a large fry pan. (I’m not so sure it actually saved any time!) Then removed bones to smaller stock pot then my usual one, and tossed mirepoix into fry pan. (It’s a really big fry pan.) I got a little worried my sucs would spoil before the veggies caramelized any more, so added tomato paste, deglazed, and did the rest of the stock process. The stock turned out well (gelatinous, clear, pretty colour, and tasty), but seems less intense than other times I’ve made it using the oven for caramelizing. I’m not sure why. I think I used more mirepoix compared to the amount of bones than I usually use, and that would make a difference. Mirepoix was not particularly caramelized, and that would make a difference. My question is, do you think doing the bones in the fry pan vrs in the oven makes a difference in the flavour? I think it did because the process created quite a lot of fat in the pan so that I needed to pour it off before veggies, and no way I could put it into the stock pot. I'm thinking in the oven, the fat drips away and that way isn't washing flavourful stuff off the chicken before it gets into the stock pot.

Hi, I didn't see it mentioned above or in the recipe itself, but were we supposed to keep refilling the water level? My chicken bones sort of disintegrated while they were submerged so initially I didn't notice the lowering level....then by the end...I had about half of the amount of stock I was expecting. (It looks and smells delicious but there is so little of it!). I only made half the recipe to start with. Should I have kept re-topping it up? Now I am worried I won't have enough to make french onion soup!

It's possible I had the temperature up too high causing too much evaporation. I did it for the full six hours and was making something else (Rouxbe ravioli!) towards the end....so possible major oversight on my part. I guess next time with lower temperature much less should go missing?!

Yes, if the water goes below the bones then it should be topped up with a bit more water. It sounds like it could have been a case of needing to adding more water and maybe also turning down the heat a bit. I encourage you to watch the cooking school lessons on stock making. In particular, the lesson called "Stock Making Fundamentals" as we go into quite a bit of detail regarding this. By the way, if you need more stock for your French onion soup, as long as the stock tastes delicious and it has a nice strong flavor, you could add a bit more water to expand it a bit. Hope this helps. Cheers!

I've often struggled a bit with the same question, and while the video lesson is very comprehensive, maybe you could provide a general rule of thumb for the amount of reduction to expect for an ideal stock. I know that the answer will be "it depends" but if there is a range to shoot for, that would be helpful (ie. expect the water to reduce by 1/4 to 1/3 or whatever). The last time I made chicken stock, I started with 10 quarts of water which yielded a little over 5 quarts of stock. The stock was rich and dark and gelatinous, but I wondered if I could have had maybe a total of 7 quarts without sacrificing the flavor or quality of the stock. I know there's no hard and fast rule here, but a rough guideline would be helpful.

Okay. I can't resist jumping in. I don't think there's missing stock or a way to predict how much it would reduce. For example, I have two pots I use for stock, and one seems to evaporate more liquid than the other. I think the trick is to just keep the bones barely covered with water, keep it at a slow simmer, and avoid the dreaded boil. After whatever amount of time, straining and getting rid of any fat, I sometimes reduce the stock before freezing for space and convenience; but if I do that, I strain it through cheesecloth first to make sure I don't emulsify fat into the stock. I can add back liquids later depending on what I want to do with the stock. I find I add water to the stock as I'm making the stock to control the temperature (getting too close to boiling), and that bit is usually all I end up adding to keep the bones covered. I think I end up with about 1/2 or a little more stock than the original amount of water I started with. If I make French Onion soup, I add back some water to stretch the stock - maybe about 1/3 by volume, depending on how rich the stock is.

Thanks for jumping in Janice and good answer btw. Indeed, It is hard to predict how much a stock will reduce. How much a stock will reduce, depends on the pots, the amounts of ingredients, their size, the heat etc. Franklin, I also wanted to mention that you are really just making flavored water. The more water, the less concentrated the water. The more water, the less concentrated the flavor. Again, as Janice mentioned, it's just important to keep the bones barely covered during the slow simmer. If they are not covered, then there is no way to extract their flavor. In the end, if the final stock is rich and gelatinous and the flavor is there, then mission accomplished. And as Janice pointed out, you can simply expand the stock later if you like. The flavor will not be as concentrated but it would give you more volume. Besides, not every dish/recipe requires a super rich stock. Hope this helps. Cheers!

I am wondering if you can tell me the correct French for ‘stock’ and for the necks and backs of chickens required to make it. I am a new member of Rouxbe but I also monitor and use a number of French sites for information and cooking tips. I am much enjoying the Rouxbe lessons, but would simply like to also look at how the French deal with stock and the ‘necks and backs’ of chickens to make it. I just find it quite interesting and since I speak French, it increases my useful vocab in cooking. Merci , Jeanette Marie Pontacq

What is a "bunch"?

B H: where I live, Parsley is mostly sold in bunches. It is exactly what it sounds like: a bunch of Parsley stalks bound in string. The size will vary, I'd guess something like 20-40 stalks with lots of leaves. Some stores in my area also sell Parsley in pots. These are usually a little smaller, but if it's the only thing I can get, I typically treat one plant as "one bunch".

I've made beef and chicken stock before, but this is my first dark chicken stock. I didn't get anything to skim off the top, but it could be because I trimmed almost all the fat off the bones before using them. When I finally took it out of the fridge, I noticed no fat on top, but a thin layer of a creamy orange substance. I didn't care for the tomato smell, but after skimming it off, the tomato smell subsided to an acceptable level. I noticed the stock was opaque and had tiny suspended bits, but this looked the same as the video. I tried to further strain it with my coffee press, but the mesh strainer in the press was just too small and the stock didn't pass through very well. I noticed transparent gelatin like substance plugging the mesh strainer. This brings up a an interesting concept of flavor to gelatin ratio: If I reduce it to increase the gelatin, I get more concentrated flavor, but if I already have enough gelatin, I wouldn't really be reducing it that much and my flavor wouldn't be as strong. Maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better that my stock isn't coming out as gelatinous as others. This stock had 3 chicken carcasses in it and yielded about 4 liters. I always use young chickens for my stocks. Would I see a difference using older chickens? Or, do I just need to increase my chicken bones? I have to admit, I have yet to see any advantage of having a real gelatinous stock. I reduced some of it as part of the lesson practice. It seems to taste fine, pretty much like au jus, but with a chicken flavor. It meets my expectations as far as appearance, taste, and texture. So if I use this reduced stock in my sauces, do i no longer need to reduce my sauce? I made it verbatim using the recipe except that I used a countertop roasting oven. The only difference I saw was the roaster seemed to keep my bones wetter during the roasting; I feared that I did more steaming than roasting. My next batch, I will eliminate the tomato paste to see what it does for the flavor. I plan to ditch the roaster and just use the oven. I'm also going to increase my bones for more gelatin and find out if there really is a reason to desire this. I think I'll experiment with different chickens too.

I have been making my own chicken stock for many years now. Ever since I took my first class in Chinese cooking. When I made my first dark stock I was really surprised at the flavor and richness of the end product. I do follow the recipe to the letter except I leave out the tomato paste. I purchased whole birds (2) and de-boned them myself. Roasted the bones off in the oven until a nice dark golden color, I do also add in with the bones the fat and skin of the birds too. This gives great flavor but you will have to skim. The results are always great and flavorful. I have ice cube trays that I use just for freezing stocks. Once frozen place cubes in freezer bags they will keep for 6 to 9 months if thay would last that long. I am now making stock every three to four months.

Thanks for your detailed report, Daniel. I recently tried this for the first time as well. I used five carcasses, and only ended up with about 3-4 liters. I'm curious roughly how much stock one could expect to get per carcass. With the yields I'm getting, my need for bones is bigger than for the chicken meat, which is bad because I can only get bones from buying whole chickens. On the gelatine issue, my stock seemed fine, more or less like in the video.

Thanks, Christophe, that's very helpful. I know I can always dillute/reduce as needed, but it's good to know roughly what a "baseline stock" is.

After browning the chicken bones I am left with a great deal of fat in the pan. Is there anything it can be used for? Can I filter it and fry with it like schmaltz? Will it keep or should I just throw it out?

After reading about all the wonderful things said about the Dark Chicken Stock, I just had to try my hand in making it. I am so disappointed in my results and do not know what I did wrong. We saved up our necks and backs from the whole chickens we bought, but quickly realized it would take to long to get enough, so we saved roasted chicken bones also. We got the six pounds required (although it took us 3-4 months), and we stored them in zip lock bags in the freezer. Mistake #1? Should I not have mixed Cooked chicken with the raw chicken when I roasted them? I followed the instructions, caramelized the bones to just darker than golden brown, and reduced the stock. Color and texture was excellent. Taste - we'll, let me say that it did not taste like our regular Chicken Stock - it was bland, tasteless, and closer to neutral. I am so very disappointed! I have made veal stock once before doing the same thing and it came out just "OK". My stock (ME) needs help! I would like to perfect this method but do not know if I have provided you with enough information to tell me where I am going wrong. Any way I can provide more flavor to my stock (like using bullion) so I can use it? Thanks for your help.

Thanks Ken! I will thaw some of the stock tonight and try it with salt in a saucer tomorrow. Regarding the mirepoix, I even had a little extra in the pot, so it was sufficient. I will try again in a few weeks and let you know about my second attempt. If the flavor improves with the salt, I will also let you know. Thanks.

Jim, you might even want to try reducing a bit of the stock, which will concentrate the flavors—that combined with a pinch of salt and you would be surprised how much flavor will come out. Hope that helps. Cheers!

Last week I used my "tasteless" Dark Stock in making Rice and a Soup. I added one bullion cube in each recipe (or in 4 cups Dark Stock) and it tasted great! I guess it is not so tasteless after all! So it seems that Ken was correct in adding salt, even though I did it with a low sodium bullion cube, but I want to try it on the plate also with just a pinch of salt. This week I will try what Ken said, then I will try what Dawn Said and let you know. Hopefully my trials will help other students to get ideas of what to do it theirs comes out like mine. Cheers.

Hey everyone, I just tried this for the first time. The taste is good but I used way too small of a stock pot (6qt). Also, the stock came out orange. I don't feel like I put too much tomato paste in it but apparently I did. Is there any way to add more of a dark brown color? Or just learn from my mistakes on this one and try for a better version on attempt #2?

Sorry Jeremy, must have missed this one. There are ways that you could try to darken your stock. For instance, you could try charring some onions to add a darker color. You just have to be careful not to char them too much or they will add a bitter note. You could also make a short stock, by roasting new bones (and maybe omitting any tomato paste) and then use the stock that you already made as the liquid for the short stock. You could also make a nice dark roux and then add the stock to that, but that would depend on what you were using the stock for etc. That being said, depending on how you plan to use the stock, you might not even notice that it's that orange by the time the final dish is prepared. Hope that helps. Cheers!

I decided to retry this one. Didn't use any tomato paste and also trimmed the chicken backs I had better so there was less fat. Then I cooked them longer until they were more caramelized. Turned out GREAT. I did it for 4.5 hours and left it just slightly watery. I'm thinking I'll use the "slightly more watery" version for things like mixing with quinoa... and then when doing something like chicken marsala, I'll just reduce more before using ;)

The recipe calls for 6 lbs of chicken bones, not bones from a 6lb chicken, right?

Hi Veronika and thanks for your question. Indeed, the recipe will work best using 6lbs of chicken bones. Thanks so much for cooking with Rouxbe! Chef Kirk

When I don’t have any dark chicken broth made, what can I use as a substitute in recipes that call for it (rouxbe recipes)? Regular chicken stock? Chicken bone broth? Thank you.

Hello there ELiza, thanks for the question. If you do not have any dark chicken broth made and you were substituting it for an already made stock, I would recommend either roasted chicken stock or a mushroom stock if you were looking for an earthy flavor. Enjoy

If I follow the extra step of reducing the stock, does it need to be diluted when using it in Rouxbe recipes like beef tenderloin with red wine sauce or chicken marasala? How about if using it in soups like the mushroom and barley soup recipe? Thank you.

Thanks Eric, makes sense.

This was my first attempt - ever - at making stock (of any kind). It was an all day affair. Shockingly enough, I couldn't find chicken bones (without a pre-order) so I broke down 4 whole chickens and used the breast bones, back bones, necks and wings (tried to remove as much of the fat from the wings that I could). In total, I had just slightly over 5 pounds of bones. I needed to roast the bones on 2 different trays to avoid overcrowding (and steaming). However, with both trays in the oven, there was definitely some steaming happening in the beginning; I bumped the heat on the oven up and finally achieved the color I was looking for. I am finding that I notice all of my foods steam (at least at the beginning of the cook) when I am cooking multiple trays. Unfortunately, my full size oven is non-convection. I had to roast the veggies separately from the chicken bones (and also on 2 trays to avoid overcrowding). Same problem as above, they seemed to be steaming so I bumped up the heat once again to get the caramelization I needed. Needless to say, that all took several hours! I tried to reduce the wine in the roasting pans but that was a huge fail. Because the chicken bones were roasted first, the fat in the pans coagulated (while the veggies were cooking), so, I turned the burners on my stove on to melt the fat (so I could pour off) and left it unattended (while getting my wine ready) and the pans got very hot and burned quite a bit of the droppings to a crisp. I went ahead and deglazed the pans with the wine, but tasted the liquid and it tasted of nothing but char and burn, so I discarded it. Once I had the veggies and bones in the pot, I found that the bones wanted to float, so I did some gentle rearranging and found that if the veggies were on top, it held the bones under the water. I had a very difficult time keeping the liquid from boiling. I used 3 different burners on my stove (ranging from large to small) and various settings. All burners were allowing the liquid to boil - even on the lowest settings - except for the smallest burner set to medium low. That burner finally put me in the sweet spot of a nice slow simmer. However, the damage was likely already done by that point as the liquid had boiled several times. At least now I know where the pot needs to be on the stove to get that nice, slow simmer. My stock cooked for 4.5 hours total (I wanted to go for 6 hours, but it was getting late and I wanted to got bed)! Unfortunately, I also forgot to add the herbs 30 minutes prior to the end of cooking. I strained through a sieve and piece of cheesecloth. The next morning, the stock had a small amount of liquid fat (which I skimmed off) and was a beautiful dark brown color. The stock has a nice, deep roasted chicken flavor and no bitterness. The stock is not very gelatinous, however, I knew that would likely be the case after I struggled keeping the constant simmer. Great lesson. Great learning experience and I now know what to do better for next time! Thanks Rouxbe!

Just wondering how many chickens I need to cook to have enough to make stock. I make whole chickens a lot but I pressure cook them. Will that make a difference in the stock?

Hi Cecilia, I, personally, usually look to have about 8 pounds of fresh bones to make 1 gallon of stock. When using pre-cooked bones, I increase the amount of bones due to the fact that some of the collagen, that creates the gelatin, gets lost in the original cooking and isn't available for the stock process. That being said, it depends on size of chickens used to determine final bone weight. If I have a chicken carcass from another preparation, I wrap it well and keep it in the freezer until I have enough to start a stock with. I hope this helps! Cheers, Sandy

Cubes vs Flat Packs: Hi! I've been making stock for a while and freezing ziplock / flat pack bags (usually make supply for several months at a time). I find the process of ladling gelatinous stock into Ziplock bags HORRENDOUS. I always feel like there's too much air left in the bag, the bags get stock all over the outside, the bags stick / freeze together in giant clumps (despite how careful I try to be in wiping them down / setting them flat). Its just a BIG MESS. Is it safe to assume that I can just continue to reduce the stock so that I can just freeze them in ice cube trays? I usually freeze flat packs in 1 cup servings. Am I correct in assuming that "1 cup of stock" could be reduced by 4/5ths into "1 super concentrated Stock Ice Cube"? Suppose it would almost be like Demi, right? To "reconstitute", is it safe to assume that if a recipe calls for "1 cup of stock", I could just add "1 stock Cube" + 4/5ths cup water and yield mostly the same result? Appreciate your thoughts on this. I have dreams of a nice tidy bag of "Stock Cubes" instead of a giant heap of frozen flat pack in the bottom of my freezer : )

Hi Peter, In short, yes! It might yield a very slightly different flavor result but, not so much that should preclude you from doing it to make your life easier. My only bit of advice is to make your stock without salt, and add salt as needed for the dishes when you are preparing them. Good luck! Cheers, Sandy

Thanks for your reply. I actually gave it a shot and ice cubes are such an improvement over flat pack : ) One more quick question - I know “gentle simmer” is the general rule. I didn’t control the heat well this time around (my flame is just too high so needs to get a diffuser). However for clarity, can you confirm if a “rolling boil” will impact the flavor of the stock? Or is it more for clarity / light color that the “gentle simmer” is the general rule. And a follow up question: if you wanted to shorten the cook time by increasing the temperature/flame (ie extract the flavor quicker), is this a compromise that can be made, if your not concerned about the color. Or better said…. are willing to sacrifice stock color for speed of the process? My guess is that the ‘cloudiness’ resulting from the rolling boil may likely have a negative impact of flavor (impurities?). Sry, guess that wasn’t a “quick question” at all : )

Hi Peter, In short, the higher-heat/rolling boil will, indeed, affect the flavor, along with the clarity. What happens is, some of the impurities and fat get emulsified into the stock, changing the flavor and creating a greasier stock. Also, with more turbulence, you get more disintegration of the mire poix (and even the bones), that will also suspend into the liquid, lowering the quality. That doesn't mean you can't, you just need to understand the trade off. Cheers, Sandy

How many whole chickens will I need to cook in order to have enough bones for this recipe? Which parts should I save? Not all chickens come with the neck.

Can I make this stock by cutting up the mirapoix,putting into a bag,pour in the oil,toss to coat then freeze.then on day off cooking put in the oven from frozen for easier clean up?

I was wondering what type of wine marsala is and what can be used instead Purity S

Hi Purity, Marsala is a fortified white wine that can be dry or sweet. In this recipe, we are looking for a dry white wine. If you would prefer not to use wine, you could deglaze with water instead. If, once you've tasted the stock, you think it could use a bit of acidity, you could add a small amount of vinegar. Cheers, Sandy

I had a go at making the white stock last night and did every thing that the video said but the stock did not set. I was really diligent about not letting the stock boil and it was on the stove for 4 1/2 hours. I'm thinking that the stock didn't actually simmer enough, it had small bubbles coming up the whole time, but it must not have been hot enough. The other thing I was thinking was if I'm skimming the whole time would it matter if it had a small boil nearer the end? When I watched the film again I noticed it was simmering harder than what I had It. I had 2 kg of bones which maybe needed to simmer harder. Any ideas?

What wine could I use instead of sherry? In the past I've used red grape juice and red wine vinegar but should it be white

That is a lot of chicken. Can I use something like chicken wings to make Dark Stock? If I make a whole chicken once a week that would be a month to get enough bones if I use all of the bones in the chicken and longer for backs and necks. I have struck out at the local butchers as far as getting them to save bones for me. I have to order the whole chicken. If there is a part substitute that would work as well I would happily use it? I just don't want to make this and not have it work in your recipe for Chicken Marsala.

Hello. When you ad the wine to deglaze the pan, a lot of the stuff on the pan gets a bit burned. Won’t that ruin the flavour of the stock? Even in the video, looks like the pan has burned stuff on it.

Hi AD, Flavor-wise there is a big difference between dark brown and black bits, though sometimes visually it can be deceiving. If there truly are black/burnt bits, that would add a bitter flavor profile, I would avoid incorporating them into the stock. I hope that helps clear things up a bit. Cheers, Sandy

What about using a pressure cooker to shorten the simmering time?

I have light chicken stock and no time to make dark chicken stock right now. Will it turn out okay or is there something I can add to the light stock to enhance it enough to work with this recipe?